Espanos`

[Genevieve]

Melissa,

I agree wholeheartedly. English can be a very beautiful language and has a vast range of words available for use. The actual problem, I believe, is that American English has diverged from the original Queen's English enough that we've lost much of the eloquence and grace.

I've been trying to do the same thing regarding improving my vocabulary, speech and enunciation. In another thread I mentioned that I wanted to become both a woman and a Lady. I meant that in terms of what the English would define as a lady. I want to develope a side that is prim and propper and has excellent language skills.

It sounds like you want to be a Lady too Melissa.   

*hugs*

Genevieve

[Melissa]

It sounds like you want to be a Lady too Melissa.   

I've had people tell me that I already am, but I'll never call myself one, since that wouldn't be very ladylike.

Melissa

[Brianna]

Opinions do not equal facts.  Please cite the exact studies and the peer reviews for items 1) Americans do not like learning other languages and 2) the Iraqi casualty figure (so far it appears it will not stand up to peer review, but would be interested in what info you may have other than the initial report.  also their previous number and report a couple of years ago were thoroughly debunked).

Oy. I envy the reality you live in to not already be aware of this. That number is a minimum according to the most recent peer reviewed war estimate.

Yes, this war has needlesly massacred at least 600,000 innocent people. That's the number, very sadly. 600,000 innocent people slaughtered that never attacked us and couldn't attack us. Almost 100,000 of them children that died for nothing other than the unfortune of being born Iraqi. Many of those children died of lack of food and medicine before they were old enough to know they were Iraqis. And all for nothing but a pack of American imperialistic lies and it's president that is a congenital liar. 

As to the language thing, that's too obvious to require proof.

Bri

[Ricki]

Well I hoped not to open a can of worms i guess i did? Hmmmm
But you guys are awesome cause at least the discussion is on the up and up and has some vigor to it.
I'd like to add or reply to some comments!
L in Time a section
Americans do not equal American government action.  When we vote (for those of us that we do), we have to trust that they government will act on our behalf in a manner that we may be able to support
to any reading so you know my feelings:   i agree with this statement above by l in time-.  I say this honestly without trying to turn this to political.  The idea of the whole Iraqi scene and invasion / war i did not agree with as a vet or as a tax payer here...I could not control it though and it happened.  I fully supported a necessary and retalatory action from the 911 issues, our fine government chose this dumb route?  costing us (this country) lives, money, and making us vulnerable in the process.  That's my feeling in a small nutshell.
Genevieve:
your comments were lighthearted and heartfelt!  Thank you. 
I must work on my wording to make my point or feeling clearer, Because i honestly just meant the language piece?  I've found amazing culture in all aspects of other countries especially with foods even some Thai cooking teehee!  I will not disagree with a staement said that americans tend to americanize.. cannot explain it in my own head but its sort of out there, we take french cuisine and then butcher it into a mid scale family dining restaurant where its lost of all its identity and origin and reasoning.. So sad....
It was said by a great culinary person of Europe hundreds of years ago that the Americans Bastardized the culinary revolution.. Lot to be said there! 
One more thing the english language and its (what's the word i want) fluency or way we use it does need some work or retolling (heck the young kids have some weird retroformatetd language to their own it seems ) , I honestly think the British are awesome they way they speak the language much more formal and pronounciated with flair, even they way they joke sounds better?  The spanish and eevn mexican languages i think are more fluid it sounds clean/ good Australian languge is neat and sounds good, pronounciated as well.  Same with the french.  I never intended to make an opinion that english language was the "best" or anything that's for sure.  Had i grown up under a different set of education rules maybe i would speak two or three languages..I know nothing is stopping me or any of us now except our own busy lives!
But thank you thank you and hugs to all!
R

[Brianna]

Dear R,

A basic tenant of Just War Theory is that we hold ourselves to the same standards we hold others to - if not more closely.

Under this tenant, if Americans go to war under the justification that our enemy is a mass murderer we are morally culpale when American leaders commit mass murderer.

So I disagree with what you are saying about the average American not having blood on their hands for the 600,000 innocent people our leaders and soldiers have slaughtered.

Bri

[Genevieve]

Brianna,

I and most of us here would be very interested in seeing the sources of your information. It would be nice to be able to have such factually based information on hand to refute (or encourage) certain political claims made by many candidates, if it exists.

As far as the "language thing" or any other controversial issue, there is no such thing as being "to obvious to require proof." Most often, such statements are made by people who do not know enough about the given subject themselves to provide proof and therefore are trying to create proof for their own opinions and suppositions while attempting to cover their own ignorance. Such people use tactics such as gross generalizations, stereotypes, profiling, manipulated statistical information and artificial inflation of numbers to create a desired emotional reaction in their readers.

We all know this is not the case with you and that you have good sources of information to support the opinions you have expressed. As I stated previously, good solid information from reliable sources is what we need to refute and/or encourage certain political positions.

Please provide links to reliable, non-sensationalistic sources for the information you have provided so we may all have access to it.

Thank you,

Gevenieve

[LostInTime]

My last post in the now mutating thread (hey, it is what we used to call this phenom back in the BBS days).

An actually pretty well balanced article from BBC News, which really surprised me.

The article has quotes from the report, the authors, detractors, and supporters.  Each with reasons on why they do or do not support the study.

The secondary point I take that you concede that you have no independent evidence to support your theory.

Calling into question my reality is very close to a personal attack, please do not let us go there.  "My world" is indeed far different than what most here will ever experience and you should be quite thankful for that.   However, it is my experience within reality that makes it so not some notion that I live out of phase with everything else.  I am just an individual who prefers to do her own thinking and lives during interesting times.

LIT

[Genevieve]

Thank you LIT 

That was a good link to solid information, although highly debated. It is is a well done, highly balanced article from an excellent source. I generally tend to trust the BBC much more than the API or other American news sources because they tend to be isolated from the American political process.

Indeed, it was very thought provoking and lends some potential credence to one of Brianna's belief sets.

I agree with you that questioning other people's realities might potentially represent a personal attack. Personally, I resented being catagorized as an arrogant, Iraqi murdering, linguistically resistant person that breathlessly watched reality television, simply because I am an American citizen. Aside from my computers, I live in a simple manner, I don't own a television, I'm trying to learn other languages and I would never harm another person except in my own defence or the defence of those I love or that can not defend themselves.

Additionally, I do vote in EVERY election. I have never voted in such a way to directly support  the war in Iraq. I thought it was wrong from the beginning and that the excuses presented by the administration for the invasion were at best horrible exagerations. I also resent the accusation that, simply because I'm an American citizen, I am responsible for the war or for the death of Iraqi citizens.

As most of us here know, we each have a voice. Our votes represent that voice in the American political process. By the vary nature of the that process, we do make changes to how the United States conducts business with the rest of the world. As the voices of more and more Americans are heard there will be change. I believe the current political agenda will be replaced in the coming years.

One point I need to note. This is not in any way to be construed as my not supporting our service men and women stationed in Iraq or Afganistan. I love you all for the service you do to keep us all safe. It is my hope that you all be blessed, stay safe and return home to your loved ones soon.

*hugs*

Genevieve

[Brianna]

I completely agree about the point about sources. I am a journalist. If you're not up to date on this story run a Nexis search for "600,000" "Iraq" and "Dead." Or maybe "Bush" "denies" "600,000" "Iraq" and "Dead."

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your tone. But It just seems probable to me that you have an interest in cheerleading/justifying this war. And I have no interest in going there with right wingers - it just gets me beyond upset.

Respectfully, 
Bri

[LostInTime]

I know, I know.  I said that I would not reply again but this should be here and public.

There is absolutely no tone to my posts save the first line which was meant to be humorous.  I do research and I do a lot of it.  Every week I go through dozens of research articles and have the background to grasp what is in front of me.  Some of these are on the Internet, others are not.  When I debate I tend to stay with facts and not emotions.  I am not a fan of Bush but I will not let that get in the way of research.  My research and methods have no political motivations although those with political aspirations or seek to justify items within their political view may indeed use it for that purpose.

Please also remember that not everything on the Internet is necessarily true.  For every search item I could find dozens, if not hundreds, of so called articles that are nothing but giant opinion pieces and I absolutely detest when journalists and others in the media use what should be a non-biased podium to force their politics down my throat.  It is true whether those politics are right wing, left wing, and/or everything in between.

I do this in the real as well.  When I did my presentation on those who are part of the Transgender spectrum, I could have ranted and raved about those who have tried to kill me, those who denied me medical treatment, docs who abused their power to humiliate me, etc, etc.  Instead I stuck with the research and only put in a limited amount about my own experiences and made sure that I stressed the fact that all transitions are different, even if there may be similarities.

Genevieve, you are welcome.  I believe that this piece is so well balanced due to the fact that the BBC has been so poor in balance in the past that they finally admitted it was a problem earlier this year and have been taking steps to remedy the situation.  I hope this is an ongoing trend.

Have fun kids, LIT is now out of this house.    PM me with any questions but realise I reserve the right to not answer anything I deem to be too personal.

LIT

[Brianna]

Did some part of this meticulous research ever mention war casualties?

Bri

[Genevieve]

Hi All,

It's very obvious that LIT did do research. LIT provided a wonderful link that even backs some of your vague assertions.

Even that one link is more than anyone else has provided.

As far as the right-winger comment you made, if you were trying to apply it to me you obviously haven't read what I've said. I will defend our soldiers in the field because they did not choose to be where they are and overwhelmingly are just normal and good people trying to do their duty to their country. I will defend our political process, even if I don't always agree with it's conclusions, because I believe in it.

I do not support the current administration or any of it's agenda regarding Iraq. But, do to the power of the vote, that will all change. This is America, that's how we do things. If you don't like it, go elsewhere.

It's gotten to the point where you just seem to be trying to attack others rather than provide any adequate justification for your positions, regardless of what they are. You still haven't even defended your position on the Spanish language here in the USA.

I too am done with this thread.

Genevieve

[Ricki]

Bri,
I do not disagree with you one bit blood on our hands is an understatment our country was literally born of blood defecting from English rule.. But I'll be honest politics is not my strong suite so my opinion is just a small one and should not matter that much to anyone, you are obviously swavvy and wordly in your thinking and knowledge and i would not want you to think i am all that wordly.  I have too much military in me to think in a full circle too, so that's a disadvantage in a conversation.  You learn to accept, deal with whatever the terminology would be in i guess any country or land.  I did not especially like or even support some of our commander in chiefs (that would be the president) whole political thinking but while in the service i had to respect the position, chain of command, and orders sent through.  As a civilian now i'm less interested really, but I am definately one of the inhibited thinkers that believes we should close up shop on the world leader business and literally fend for ourselves and take care of our own.  I see homeless people driving into the city on the way to work living under bridges and in boxes, begging for food on the sidewalk.   
what is wrong with that picture?  Yet somehow the us finds these ways of funding humanitarian aid to other countries and stuff?
I am afraid i am such a small grain of sand in all this that all of the talking and discussions we have will not change much in the powers that be!  But i enjoy the dialogue and peoples views.
Ciao~
R

[Rana]

Random factoids I have come across.
Spanish, latino people  (sorry, am not sure the correct term    ) are now the biggest minority in the USA.
After the US had won its independance from Great Britian, there was an argument over what should be the US national language British or German,  apparently it was a close decision.
Not everyone in Iraq was against the US "invasion", Kurds were overjoyed I believe - and the Shi,ites in the south were happy but for different reasons.
Wasen't that wood mulching machine that Saddam's son used to process his "enemies" amazing. 
Many/most deaths in Iraq are caused not by Americans but by different Iraqi factions.

This is not  a fact but merely my opinion, if I decided to move to another country, I would at least make some effort to understand its language and culture.  Refusal to indicates arrogance or stupidity.

How come this thread moved from a simple observation about language to race and US foreign policy?

[Melissa]

It seems it would be a good idea to lock this thread at this point.  Moderators?

Melissa