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Fears about passing as female

Started by MeowMeansMeow, December 07, 2009, 01:11:41 PM

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pamshaw

What is so interesting about this discussion is how similar our fears and feelings are. We all worry about passing, am I gay, am I really a woman and so on. Understand if you really are transgendered you are a woman even though you were born with the wrong private parts; and it won't go away. Therapy and HRT helped me accept my womanhood and rid me of shame and guilt. It is OK to be transgendered! One of my liberating moments came when I was clothes shopping and the sales lady asked me if the clothes were for my wife. I said no they were for me as I was transgendered and was transitioning to womanhood. She smiled and said good for you and I will be glad to help you pick out the best things for you. I hardly ever think about my maleness as HRT has been wonderful physically and emotionally. I even dream as a woman. By the way I never thought about men before transition and yes I am attracted to men now and have thoroughly enjoyed being intimate as a woman. Good luck; it is a difficult journey but if you are transgendered it is worth it.


Pam
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alexia elliot

Hi again, as I read your reflections and yes, I am also one who feels you as well speak for me, I can see quite clearly that for most of us TGs going all the way seems to be a pinnacle of the desire to obtain femininity so craved for a lifetime. I also start to understand through your description, that perhaps some of us are meant to be just in between and not like a crossdresser who for a moment enjoys the reflection in the mirror almost as though a secondary self, but entirely in-between self, not male and not female just mostly feminine being with some of masculine traces. Ask your self a question, that if you were given an opportunity to be transformed into fully genetic female in an instant however the result would be rather mediocre perhaps less than average woman, slightly overweight, not attractive by any standard with all of the female conditions, periods, bloating etc., would you still do it? I believe that if the answer is YES, as I know lots of girls here would say yes, than you truly are female in male disguise, but if the answer is NO I believe we are the in-betweens who for a lifetime new we are different, more feminine, for whom female figures did fit much better than what we have bin given. But also the lifetime of day dreaming about being a woman created a monster, sculpted out of bits and pieces of desire to become feminine perfection where all our imaginative dreams finally come to be. I am sorry about all my ifs and maybes, I am thinking out loud. I have left an emotional post reply here before and admit to be a little hormonal in it, out of the respect to all the girls here who tool quite some knowledge, I do believe too that good knowledgeable therapist would be recommended but doubt weather this sort of criteria is well understood.
Always with Love, Alexia. :icon_bunch:   
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MeowMeansMeow

I was a little surprised by how easily I was able to go buy women's clothing again, without much embarrassment at all. I think my first stint of therapy back in 1999/2000 helped me get over that. Now I find myself just not caring much if people know. Well, I don't think that's entirely accurate - I run a community website, and I think I'm not ready to publish this to the whole world just yet. But walking into a store and asking for help picking out women's clothing, eh, not such a big deal now. I think what happened was that I had a kind of epiphany that it's just so much easier living the truth rather than living the lie. So being truthful no matter the feared consequences is probably the best course in the long run. Everything just gets easier. I guess I will have to come out eventually to my website users if I do continue down the path of transition, but I have a bit of a plan for that - I'm in the process of expanding the site into other topics, and I'm sure that one of those will be about transgender issues. Sorry if this is not something I should talk about - I'm not trying to promote anything, this is just what I do, I'm a website developer (I want to emphasise that I'm not plugging myself to look for work - I don't do contract stuff any more, for the last few years it's just been me working on developing my own site). It doesn't make much money at the moment - it is my main thing, and enables me to work from home, but the site does bring in voluntary donations that certainly help with the rent. My big plan is to expand the site and make a lot more money. I've been running it for about 10 years now, and it's been getting a bit stale of late, but the funny thing is that this transgender resurgence is providing me with more motivation to finally get it all finished and ready for primetime, because if I do transition then I think it'll take money, and lots of it, to do it properly (for me - others may be lucky, but it'll take quite a bit to make me look feminine, trust me!).

Another funny thing: I've noticed that I am more motivated now to lose weight. I'm not obese, but I am 30 lbs overweight (200, should be more like 170 or so). I have a belly which disgusts me now that I look at myself in a skirt or dress, and I find the top of the pantyhose wants to roll itself down because of the fat. Yuck. Too much time spent in front of the computer, not enough on the bicycle! It's easier to ignore that type of thing when you're just being a guy and don't really care about a bit of a gut. But now I find I am actually looking at myself in the mirror, and I don't like what I see. So that's motivation! I have started running (the c25k program, "couch to 5k"), and I am rowing more every day (I have a Concept 2 rower, which has gone grossly underused since I bought it two years ago). In the last week I have seen my weight go below 200 lbs for the first time in a while - probably mostly water loss, but it's a start! And like I said, I find myself actually wanting to do it, thinking about how I look in the mirror, so that's a good thing.

Another thought: I used to work out at the gym a lot more before I got married. I was in really excellent shape, I particularly loved aerobics. I think my motivation back then was to "get the girl". I was still a virgin when I got married at the age of 35, I'd never had a girlfriend because I was too shy to ask them out, and just generally too passive about the whole thing. But anyway, I believe a lot of the motivation was to make myself fit and lean to "get the girl". So once you get married, you've basically got the girl, and that deflates quite a bit of the motivation there! At least, that's my intuition about what happens. Once the goal of a mate is attained, then you don't have to try so hard any more. Anyway, I'm wondering if this latest surge in motivation is due to a return to "get the girl" - though now, the girl is a future me. Does that make any sense at all? I've been blabbing an awful lot on this thread, and I'm really sorry if it's turning anybody off.

Alexia, I just read your latest post. Yes, I think if I could be transformed into a woman right now, even if it was not a beautiful, slender woman, as long as I could walk down the street without everybody pointing and laughing, I would definitely do it. This comes back to my original point in this thread, my fears about passing. I read an inspirational story the other day about Jan Hamilton, a British para soldier who transitioned and went to a doc in Thailand named Dr Suporn. He seemed to do a pretty good job! From para to fairly convincing female, that was a trick. If I could afford to get similar work done then I would definitely do it, no question. It's not that I desire a certain movie star look before I transition, I just want to blend in and not have people constantly questioning me. I just want to be a woman, not a transexual - no offense to anybody, I hope, I'm not panning transexualism in any way. I just want to go all the way, not be stuck in some in-between state.

Am I able to post pics here? If so, then I could post one of my face to see what you gals think. I don't really have any clue about what constitutes masculine or feminine features - I have a small chin and jaw (I think) but my face as a whole screams "guy". I'd definitely need to get the eyebrow ridge trimmed down, and the nose is pretty horrible and bulbous too. I've always hated the way I look, this is part of why I was so insecure talking to women. I've always believed I was ugly, and the kids at school didn't hesitate to reinforce that notion. My wife is from Japan, and she thinks I'm cute - I really think that's because I look sufficiently different from the Asian norm. Western girls just don't find me attractive at all.

Sorry for all the ramblings, again - please let me know if I'm straying outside what's ok to talk about here. If I can post pics then I'd be glad to have you guys critique what you think I would need to work on to feminize the facial features.

Thanks again!

Meow
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alexia elliot

Hey, I just got a thing for you, do post your picture here or sent it to my email and I will do a Virtual transform to make it more feminine( if it isn't already) if you like. That is what I do best, and being an artist I truly enjoy the process. Check out the results for one of our TGirls I have done at link: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,68191.0.html
My Email is alexaelliot@yahoo.com 
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Janet_Girl

Meow,
At 15 posts, many things will open up to you.  Just keep asking questions and replying to posts and you will get there.

My ex always told me I make an ugly woman.  It that is so, then so be it.  I would rather be an ugly woman than to live one more moment as a male.



Hugs and Love
Janet
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Naturally Blonde

Quote from: Beni on December 07, 2009, 08:08:02 PM
Ha.....I Knew I would always look like a guy in a Dress, or pant suit anyway.  Needless to say, change happens.  Ok some need a little facial surgery, but For me anyway, this is the face I was born with, but on E.   So don't use the "I'll look like a guy with Boob's think. to hold you back.  It does take time and the change is soooo slow but it does happen.  Though it does vary from person to person.

Best of luck how ever you deal with it.

Beni

I've seen your before pics Beni and the changes are very impressive considering you haven't resorted to surgery and I really wish HRT worked as well on me but it didn't unfortunitely.
Living in the real world, not a fantasy
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MeowMeansMeow

Well, I've made my appointment with a local transgender-specific therapist, courtesy of a recommendation from Dawn - thanks, Dawn! I'll be seeing Melinda on Friday.

I've been trying out this new Braun Epilator - very nice little gadget. I did my legs over the weekend. A little painful in places, but it's definitely better if you shaved recently. Longer hairs are the worst. I tried it on the face but quickly stopped since it was much, much more painful! I have quite sensitive skin, it gets inflamed and red if you breathe on it. Poor delicate little me that looks like Shrek. But it really does seem to work - the legs get nice and smooth. I really dislike body hair.

I can see I'm going to have to take this really slowly with my wife - although we're not fighting or anything drastic like that, I can see that she has pretty much shut down about the whole thing and doesn't want to talk about it. Can't say I blame her. I'll just play it by ear and see where the therapy goes.

I've been ordering way too much stuff online (shoes in particular - I have a thing for pretty shoes). Time to step back and take a breath. It's all a little heady.

Thanks again for everybody's help here - Alexia, I will be trying to get those pics taken today and send them over to you.

Meow
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Dawn D.

Meow,

That's great news about seeing the therapist! I do hope it all goes well!

Epilation? Yikes!! Sounds too painful, especially on the face, lol. How about electrolysis on your facial hair? We have several places in the local area to use, If you like, I can make recommendations there too. Karin can recommend a good laser option if you'd be interested in that process, as well.

Our SO's are often the hardest part of this process. You have the right idea though; slow. And, keep the lines of communication open. That's usually the key.

Careful of that pink fog as it's called, lol! Shopping can get real addictive, real fast. Expensive too! As you said, coming up for fresh air can help you clear your mind. But, enjoy the ride anyway!

Take care!

Dawn 
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Firelight

What sort of epilator? Could you show me? I'm a bit curious.

Also, as a veteran of both laser and electrolysis, I kind of chuckled at it being recommended as a less-painful alternative. :)
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MeowMeansMeow

I found it on Amazon, it's called the Braun 5270 Silk-épil X'elle Body System Epilator. I have no experience of laser or electrolysis, so I can't really compare. This little thing is quite nice because it has a light which really helps to spot the little hairs you missed, and a couple of different heads - one for "beginners" which is supposed to make it a little easier (it has rollers which I think are supposed to raise the hairs up a bit), a more open head that puts the tweezer roller more in direct contact with the skin (for "advanced" people whose skin is more used to it - though I found I actually preferred this one) and a shaver head which was a surprise. Seems like a good modular design, and I've liked Braun shavers in the past, they always seem to be high quality (and no, I don't work for them!). Like I said, it's a bit too much for use on the face (for me anyway), but for the legs it seems to work very well - if you shave first so that the hairs are quite short. I noticed a definite difference in pain level when I tried the epilator on areas which I had happened to miss with the shaver. But whatever, it's bearable and really not that bad, and it does get rid of the hairs. I've also ordered some Emjoi after-epilation cream which is supposed to help soothe the skin and also somehow inhibit regrowth. There are apparently also gels out there which are supposed to help with ingrown hairs - hopefully I won't get that, but we'll see!

Meow
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Just Kate

As unpopular as this might be to bring up, Meow, have you checked out Anne Lawrence's website related to  ->-bleeped-<-?  I think you might find even more information there that will help you deal with your feelings, especially the sexual ones.

You might start here: http://www.annelawrence.com/publications/ ->-bleeped-<-,_a_paraphilic_model_of_GID.pdf

Though you can read more at the main page here:

http://www.annelawrence.com/twr/ ->-bleeped-<-index.html

Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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MeowMeansMeow

Yes, thanks - I have seen Anne Lawrence's site and skimmed the stuff on  ->-bleeped-<-. I quickly realized when I came back to this stuff recently that there seems to be a bit of a controversy over this term, or at least with regard to Anne Lawrence. I still haven't been able to untangle the threads to figure out whether it's just some people who have a personal vendetta against her, or if there is actually a reasonable disagreement.

I've tried to analyse my own experiences with this, and it's obvious that there is a sexual component to the feelings of gender dysphoria that I have. These feelings definitely go away for a minute or two right after orgasm. Climax is a very strange thing, obviously certain chemicals are released in your brain at that moment, which produces the classic feelings of relaxation and not caring about anything. So I need to figure out if I am really someone who would benefit from transition, or if it is simply a fetish. My intuition currently is that I have a deep desire to be a woman, regardless of the "noise" that is produced by sex hormones and the triggers associated with that. Simply because my gender dysphoria has become mixed up with the sex triggers doesn't, in my mind, invalidate the deeper issue of wanting to be female. It does, of course, cloud the landscape, and I hope that the therapy with a psychologist experienced in transgender issues will help me to find my way through this successfully.

It's certainly an interesting field, isn't it? We are messing with some of the most fundamental aspects of our perception of sex and gender. Not by choice, mind you, I'd appreciate it if my life was a little simpler and I didn't have to deal with this, but here I am, so here I go!

Thanks again,

Meow
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Just Kate

Yes, I agree with you that the presence of sexual motivation does not invalidate one's deeper desires to be female, but I present it just as an opportunity for you to find out more about how the sexual component might function to see if you could glean any useful information from it.

I'm glad to know you are so thoroughly researching the topic even to consider people like Lawrence.
Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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MeowMeansMeow

Hi Interalia,

Wow, I just had a read of your blog (linked on your sig line). Thanks for publishing that, it's extremely interesting to me. I have long been aware of the dangers of groupthink, in all walks of life really, and it seems to be an issue in transgenderland too. I really do believe that many people probably try to fit themselves into the "accepted" mode of what a transexual is "supposed" to experience (e.g. always hated being a boy, hate the penis, always felt like I was a girl on the inside etc). I think this is a natural part of human nature - we will try to fit ourselves into a shoebox so we can make sense of who and what we are - oh, ok, so *that's* what I am. It makes things a little easier to deal with. Also, I think you're bang on about the doubts people have, and how there is a circle of mutual validation that goes on. I'm not trying to slam anybody or say that it's necessarily wrong, it's just that what you say has the ring of truth about it. Well, everything except the religion part (I'm very anti-religion), but I won't hold that against you! ;-)

Thanks again, reading your blog has re-sharpened my intent to be completely and utterly honest when I speak to the therapist this Friday. There is a big temptation to gloss over doubts and not mention inconvenient truths, but I think it's much more interesting to try to really get to the bottom of this, than to try to make myself sound like a "classic" transexual just because I know that's what will smooth the path toward transition. Deceipt (of self or others) helps nobody. We'll see how that goes!

Thanks again,

Meow
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Jesslee

Quote from: MeowMeansMeow on December 15, 2009, 12:14:28 PM
Yes, thanks - I have seen Anne Lawrence's site and skimmed the stuff on  ->-bleeped-<-. I quickly realized when I came back to this stuff recently that there seems to be a bit of a controversy over this term, or at least with regard to Anne Lawrence. I still haven't been able to untangle the threads to figure out whether it's just some people who have a personal vendetta against her, or if there is actually a reasonable disagreement.

I've tried to analyse my own experiences with this, and it's obvious that there is a sexual component to the feelings of gender dysphoria that I have. These feelings definitely go away for a minute or two right after orgasm. Climax is a very strange thing, obviously certain chemicals are released in your brain at that moment, which produces the classic feelings of relaxation and not caring about anything. So I need to figure out if I am really someone who would benefit from transition, or if it is simply a fetish. My intuition currently is that I have a deep desire to be a woman, regardless of the "noise" that is produced by sex hormones and the triggers associated with that. Simply because my gender dysphoria has become mixed up with the sex triggers doesn't, in my mind, invalidate the deeper issue of wanting to be female. It does, of course, cloud the landscape, and I hope that the therapy with a psychologist experienced in transgender issues will help me to find my way through this successfully.

It's certainly an interesting field, isn't it? We are messing with some of the most fundamental aspects of our perception of sex and gender. Not by choice, mind you, I'd appreciate it if my life was a little simpler and I didn't have to deal with this, but here I am, so here I go!

Thanks again,

Meow


Hello Meow

Below is link to an alternative idea to " ->-bleeped-<-" that I think is much more possible. Please read the article.

The fact that many of these people who begin to de-transition and find that their GID returns when they begin taking testosterone indicates that this is more than a "MENTAL" problem.


Many of the proponents for  ->-bleeped-<- believe that deep down this is a result of unhealthy masturbation habits during puberty. If you only knew my history you would understand how silly this idea sounds (I was a very late bloomer). Only you know when you first became aware of your GID and if it was well before any "Masturbation routine" was established then that should indicate this is not your problem. Many of the people are also proponents of "Reparative Therapy" which has proven time and again to be very unpredictable.


There are those that seem to be happy after de-transitioning however, in the majority of these cases most of these people (I believe) were actually Gay men who had been brought up with very strict Religious/Moral beliefs that made them unwilling to accept their homosexuality. These people usually displayed behaviors in teenage years that were consistent with gay men (including Dating/Sex with men) and very little behavior consistent with GID (suicidal thoughts, depression, disgust with ones own body).


MSNBC recently aired a program on this topic where 2 people de-transitioned. One person was obviously a Gay man in denial, and was very happy when he began to transition back quickly taking on the physique of a bodybuilder (which to many TS would trigger a suicide) and dating men.

The second person was encouraged to de-transition by a Church organization that had an outreach program to the Gay/TS community. This person later regretted the de-transition, the GID returned and she attempted suicide. This was a very interesting documentary you should watch if you can.


As far as the issue of whether or not to transition, in your case I would advise you to be very careful and very sure that there is no other way you can solve the problem. If you have not already told your wife you should make sure that you are prepared to lose her before you tell her anything. Regardless of what anyone tells you there is no guarantee that she will accept this, and just telling her that you feel this way will change everything in your relationship regardless of whether or not you decide to transition.

It is true that we live in a "no fault" divorce society so she does not need the GID issue as a reason to divorce you, but you have a child and she may very well use the GID issue to gain full custody. I only tell you this because these are the most common outcomes for those in your situation. I wish you the best, and hope that you make the best decision.


Here is an excerpt and link to the article I mentioned.


http://www.avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm


"Case study 1.: In 2005 a genetic male who had transitioned to the female gender role (Sex Reassignment Surgery in the mid 1980s) and had been living happily--or at least contently--as a woman for 20 years, presented to me with relationship issues. What is significant about this case is that the individual made the appointment using her legal female name (S.) but presented as an individual with a male appearance and a subdued but obvious male demeanor.

On further discovery, it was learned that two years earlier, while S. was still living in the female gender role, she met a woman and fell in love. They started dating and eventually cohabiting. As is common with most MTFs, her libido was low to nonexistent. To please her girlfriend, she returned to the doctor who originally prescribed her estrogen, and asked to be put on testosterone to increase her libido.

However, along with the increase in libido, the testosterone caused a re-masculinization of her body. To complicate matters, the girlfriend not only enjoyed her partner's increased libido, she also enjoyed the masculinization and encouraged S. to take increasingly massive doses of testosterone. In time S. had in effect retransitioned back to looking and presenting as a male.

To S's surprise, a strong unrelenting desire to be a woman rerurned to pre-transition levels. Still owning a large female wardrobe, she started to cross dress to relieve the anxiety. The problem now was that the girl friend was upset over seeing her, now male looking lover, wearing women's clothes and was threatening to leave her unless she stopped. Totally distraught over her situation, S. came to me in the hope that I could help to save the relationship. In the end S. realized that in order to find peace, she needed to give up the relationship, stop taking the testosterone and resumed an estrogen regimen. She is now happily--or at least contently--once again living in the female gender role."
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MeowMeansMeow

Hi Jesslee,

I think maybe you're mixing me up with someone else, because you mention me having a child (we don't), and also seem to be under the impression that I haven't yet told my wife about this (I did, very early on in our relationship).

You mention people de-transitioning and feeling GID return after going back "on" testosterone. I think this is interesting, because as far as I know testosterone is the sex hormone, it's what provides the drive for a healthy male. I think if you have low testosterone then you pretty much have a lower sex drive. I believe I remember reading that even women who receive testosterone therapy (in doses appropriate for females) experience an increased sex drive. So, to me this is interesting because it brings up the possibility of the GID being driven, or at least triggered, by sex drive, i.e. testosterone. I'm not making any conclusions here, I'm just brainstorming, but if this was true then maybe one of the reasons MtF transsexuals "feel better" after transitioning is because they have removed the source of testosterone (the testes) and thus have removed the source of the sex drive that triggered these feelings of dysphoria previously.

You know, I think we should be able to talk about these sorts of things without feeling like we have to walk on eggshells, or that we might be saying the wrong thing that might tend to make someone feel "invalidated". That's not what I'm trying to do at all.  In fact, I'm very open to the fact that I may go either way here - I may find out that I am a bona fide transsexual, who will feel happier once I've confronted all my little issues and just do the transition. Or I may find out that my GID is more driven by sex fantasies, and that transitioning would ultimately make me very unhappy since it takes away the source - i.e. my male sex drive.

On this subject, I think it's a bit more than a simple sex fantasy thing for me. I remember when I was a very small child, probably under the age of 6, being fascinated with my older sister's white boots and wanting to put them on. I remember sitting in my room chanting to myself "I am a boy, I am a boy, I am a boy", because I could feel something deep inside of me that wanted to become a girl. I felt like there was some kind of transformative force that wanted to turn me into a girl, and I tried to resist it. I also remember sometimes giving into this, and chanting instead "I am a girl", and feeling a thrill when I said that. I remember many such feelings way before puberty ever hit. I remember as puberty started to take hold, wishing above all else that it could stop, and that I could instead wake up one morning as a girl, because I sensed deep down that irreversible changes were happening to me, and I hated it. What happened at puberty was that my sex drive suddenly went through the roof, and it's perhaps inevitable that something so intimately linked to the other sex (even if it is the idea of me being that sex) would become, well, sexualised. That's easy to see. I don't think it has to be seen as the sole foundation of the GID, but I'm very comfortable with it being a part of it. Either way doesn't necessarily validate or invalidate anything.

I do think that there is an almost infinite number of permutations for the way people can be transgendered. There most likely are lots of cases of men who are actually gay, who think they are transsexual but actually just need to work through their own issues with being gay. It was interesting to read somewhere that a lot of the more flamboyant "drag queens" are actually gay men who see themselves more as female impersonators, and they really do not want to become fully female at all, since they identify as gay men, not women. These people often revel in the "acting like a woman" part, and they can be very good at it (also very over-the-top, but that's ok too!). These people would never want to lose their ability to have sex as a man, though. I have read fantasies which explicitly lay out a story where a boy is "sissified" to be exactly like a girl in every respect, but they still keep their penis and testicles (just tucked away). I was struck by how the stories always seem to emphasise this, as if it's some kind of "safe reassurance" for the reader that they are still male under it all, just "sissified". I was always a little puzzled by this, because surely if they like being a girl, then why wouldn't they want to go all the way and do that last step? But now I realize that it's all just part of the spectrum. Some people really want to be feminine in every way, but know that underneath it all, they are still male. I am the opposite; in fact I would gain quite a bit of comfort from knowing that I was female in shape and form, underneath everything, even if I had to continue to live in society as a man. Of course, I'd much rather live as a woman, but I'm just making the point that for me it's the opposite - the knowledge that there's still a penis down there under all the clothing is a real buzzkill for me. And padded bras just doesn't do it, I want the real thing.

So there are people who are not so much into the "acting like a woman" aspect, so much as "being a woman". There is a subtle difference, and I believe I am the latter. I am not effeminate; if you met me, you would never guess that I am transgendered. Well, maybe you would, I dunno, but I am able to put on a pretty good act (I find myself changing my persona according to the people I'm with - e.g. I'll cater one way to a bunch of working guys, and another way to a group of geeks, and yet another way to a group of people I know to be transgendered - I try to read people, and find myself able to tune into their frequency, and, if I feel like it, deal on their level). But I digress - the thing is, I am not interested in the drag queen thing, or acting all flamboyant or dressing up and parading around on a stage. This is exhibitionism, and it's fine, but it's not me. For me, the GID is simply about WANTING to be wholly female in every respect possible. I have not ever actually thought of myself as a woman trapped in a man's body. Nor have I ever sat there hating my penis. Nor have I ever contemplated suicide because I'm a man rather than a woman. Does this "invalidate" my feelings of gender dysphoria? Who's to say? I mean, this whole field is a work in progress, isn't it. We should be careful not to ossify the dogma too much at this early stage, lest we turn people off expressing themselves honestly.

I think I could do the transition thing, to be honest, or maybe I'd also be able to deal with living as a man for the rest of my life. True, I've been feeling kind of dead inside for the last few years (no aspersion to my wife, she's great - this is about me). But I could probably deal with it. I know that since I've re-started looking at the GID again head-on, I've felt a huge surge of motivation and excitement. Whether this is real, because it's me on the "right" path again, or just titillation because it's so intimately involved with my sexual fantasies of becoming a female, well, that's hopefully what I'm going to find out through therapy. Should be interesting...

:-)

Meow

Post Merge: December 15, 2009, 02:14:17 PM

One more thing - I read online recently a fantasy about someone being forced to become a woman, through some sort of contrived circumstances that don't really matter here. The thing that struck me was the rather twisted view of women that the author exhibited - during the feminization process, one of the nurses who was helping him become her was telling the patient about how, once he became a woman, she would be compelled to open her legs to any man who wanted her, because women were basically helpless in front of men and had to do whatever they wanted. There were a lot of little episodes where the patient is gradually forced to perform oral sex on a male nurse, and starts to like it, to his/her horror, but eventual acceptance sets in and "he" starts relishing being a "she" and submitting herself to the lustful appetites of men.

I found all this rather strange, because it seemed to betray a really immature, simplistic view of women. I know it was "just a fantasy", but the author did seem to have some real issues there! To him (or her - I'm guessing it was a him, since I can't really imagine any woman writing this stuff) women really are just weak creatures who are only about submission to the whims of men. It seems a bit demeaning, to be honest. I have to say I've noticed this in quite a bit of the "fantasy" literature I've read. It just seemed to me that the author didn't hold women in very high regard at all.

Never mind, just thinking out loud...

Meow
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Jesslee

Quote from: MeowMeansMeow on December 15, 2009, 04:05:05 PM
Hi Jesslee,

I think maybe you're mixing me up with someone else, because you mention me having a child (we don't), and also seem to be under the impression that I haven't yet told my wife about this (I did, very early on in our relationship).

You mention people de-transitioning and feeling GID return after going back "on" testosterone. I think this is interesting, because as far as I know testosterone is the sex hormone, it's what provides the drive for a healthy male. I think if you have low testosterone then you pretty much have a lower sex drive. I believe I remember reading that even women who receive testosterone therapy (in doses appropriate for females) experience an increased sex drive. So, to me this is interesting because it brings up the possibility of the GID being driven, or at least triggered, by sex drive, i.e. testosterone. I'm not making any conclusions here, I'm just brainstorming, but if this was true then maybe one of the reasons MtF transsexuals "feel better" after transitioning is because they have removed the source of testosterone (the testes) and thus have removed the source of the sex drive that triggered these feelings of dysphoria previously.

You know, I think we should be able to talk about these sorts of things without feeling like we have to walk on eggshells, or that we might be saying the wrong thing that might tend to make someone feel "invalidated". That's not what I'm trying to do at all.  In fact, I'm very open to the fact that I may go either way here - I may find out that I am a bona fide transsexual, who will feel happier once I've confronted all my little issues and just do the transition. Or I may find out that my GID is more driven by sex fantasies, and that transitioning would ultimately make me very unhappy since it takes away the source - i.e. my male sex drive.

On this subject, I think it's a bit more than a simple sex fantasy thing for me. I remember when I was a very small child, probably under the age of 6, being fascinated with my older sister's white boots and wanting to put them on. I remember sitting in my room chanting to myself "I am a boy, I am a boy, I am a boy", because I could feel something deep inside of me that wanted to become a girl. I felt like there was some kind of transformative force that wanted to turn me into a girl, and I tried to resist it. I also remember sometimes giving into this, and chanting instead "I am a girl", and feeling a thrill when I said that. I remember many such feelings way before puberty ever hit. I remember as puberty started to take hold, wishing above all else that it could stop, and that I could instead wake up one morning as a girl, because I sensed deep down that irreversible changes were happening to me, and I hated it. What happened at puberty was that my sex drive suddenly went through the roof, and it's perhaps inevitable that something so intimately linked to the other sex (even if it is the idea of me being that sex) would become, well, sexualised. That's easy to see. I don't think it has to be seen as the sole foundation of the GID, but I'm very comfortable with it being a part of it. Either way doesn't necessarily validate or invalidate anything.

I do think that there is an almost infinite number of permutations for the way people can be transgendered. There most likely are lots of cases of men who are actually gay, who think they are transsexual but actually just need to work through their own issues with being gay. It was interesting to read somewhere that a lot of the more flamboyant "drag queens" are actually gay men who see themselves more as female impersonators, and they really do not want to become fully female at all, since they identify as gay men, not women. These people often revel in the "acting like a woman" part, and they can be very good at it (also very over-the-top, but that's ok too!). These people would never want to lose their ability to have sex as a man, though. I have read fantasies which explicitly lay out a story where a boy is "sissified" to be exactly like a girl in every respect, but they still keep their penis and testicles (just tucked away). I was struck by how the stories always seem to emphasise this, as if it's some kind of "safe reassurance" for the reader that they are still male under it all, just "sissified". I was always a little puzzled by this, because surely if they like being a girl, then why wouldn't they want to go all the way and do that last step? But now I realize that it's all just part of the spectrum. Some people really want to be feminine in every way, but know that underneath it all, they are still male. I am the opposite; in fact I would gain quite a bit of comfort from knowing that I was female in shape and form, underneath everything, even if I had to continue to live in society as a man. Of course, I'd much rather live as a woman, but I'm just making the point that for me it's the opposite - the knowledge that there's still a penis down there under all the clothing is a real buzzkill for me. And padded bras just doesn't do it, I want the real thing.

So there are people who are not so much into the "acting like a woman" aspect, so much as "being a woman". There is a subtle difference, and I believe I am the latter. I am not effeminate; if you met me, you would never guess that I am transgendered. Well, maybe you would, I dunno, but I am able to put on a pretty good act (I find myself changing my persona according to the people I'm with - e.g. I'll cater one way to a bunch of working guys, and another way to a group of geeks, and yet another way to a group of people I know to be transgendered - I try to read people, and find myself able to tune into their frequency, and, if I feel like it, deal on their level). But I digress - the thing is, I am not interested in the drag queen thing, or acting all flamboyant or dressing up and parading around on a stage. This is exhibitionism, and it's fine, but it's not me. For me, the GID is simply about WANTING to be wholly female in every respect possible. I have not ever actually thought of myself as a woman trapped in a man's body. Nor have I ever sat there hating my penis. Nor have I ever contemplated suicide because I'm a man rather than a woman. Does this "invalidate" my feelings of gender dysphoria? Who's to say? I mean, this whole field is a work in progress, isn't it. We should be careful not to ossify the dogma too much at this early stage, lest we turn people off expressing themselves honestly.

I think I could do the transition thing, to be honest, or maybe I'd also be able to deal with living as a man for the rest of my life. True, I've been feeling kind of dead inside for the last few years (no aspersion to my wife, she's great - this is about me). But I could probably deal with it. I know that since I've re-started looking at the GID again head-on, I've felt a huge surge of motivation and excitement. Whether this is real, because it's me on the "right" path again, or just titillation because it's so intimately involved with my sexual fantasies of becoming a female, well, that's hopefully what I'm going to find out through therapy. Should be interesting...

:-)

Meow

Post Merge: December 15, 2009, 02:14:17 PM

One more thing - I read online recently a fantasy about someone being forced to become a woman, through some sort of contrived circumstances that don't really matter here. The thing that struck me was the rather twisted view of women that the author exhibited - during the feminization process, one of the nurses who was helping him become her was telling the patient about how, once he became a woman, she would be compelled to open her legs to any man who wanted her, because women were basically helpless in front of men and had to do whatever they wanted. There were a lot of little episodes where the patient is gradually forced to perform oral sex on a male nurse, and starts to like it, to his/her horror, but eventual acceptance sets in and "he" starts relishing being a "she" and submitting herself to the lustful appetites of men.

I found all this rather strange, because it seemed to betray a really immature, simplistic view of women. I know it was "just a fantasy", but the author did seem to have some real issues there! To him (or her - I'm guessing it was a him, since I can't really imagine any woman writing this stuff) women really are just weak creatures who are only about submission to the whims of men. It seems a bit demeaning, to be honest. I have to say I've noticed this in quite a bit of the "fantasy" literature I've read. It just seemed to me that the author didn't hold women in very high regard at all.

Never mind, just thinking out loud...

Meow


Yes sorry, I got your thread confused with Davina's "Should I live with it or fix it" thread, I was following both, and they had some similar topics.

Now on to the other issues.


"For me, the GID is simply about WANTING to be wholly female in every respect possible. I have not ever actually thought of myself as a woman trapped in a man's body. Nor have I ever sat there hating my penis. Nor have I ever contemplated suicide because I'm a man rather than a woman. Does this "invalidate" my feelings of gender dysphoria? Who's to say? I mean, this whole field is a work in progress, isn't it. We should be careful not to ossify the dogma too much at this early stage, lest we turn people off expressing themselves honestly."

Please do not think that I am insisting on a "One Size Fits All" diagnosis for those with GID, this is not what I meant. Not all will experience every symptom, and many of the symptoms of GID seem to be dynamic (at least for myself) in that they will appear and increase in intensity over time.


There are those that wish to supply a "One Size Fits All" vector of transmission for GID in non-homosexual men. The most vocal groups are those that insist GID is actually a Sexual Fetish ( ->-bleeped-<-). While I do believe that there are people who can appear dysphoric on the surface because they have a sexual-fetish that begins to consume their entire life. I also believe that these people are most likely a form of cross-dresser and that for them there dysphoria centers solely around the act of sex. I also believe that this type of person can account for the majority of those (non-gay men) that are unhappy after they have transitioned. They have a libido that has been dramatically reduced and therefore no longer have such a severe desire to fantasize about being a woman or wearing a female clothing. This would most likely make them realize that they have made a mistake. In contrast those people that did not suffer from such a fetish will go on to enjoy their new life and never question if they have made a mistake.


Now as for the issue of a testosterone fueled sex drive being responsible for GID in a TS, on the surface this seems logical until you begin to look at what it is the individual is dysphoric about.
First not every TS is without Libido (or testosterone) after transition, it is only the levels that have changed/dropped, and many report a healthy sex life that resembles that of natal females. Now if it was only the "SEX DRIVE" that triggered GID then these people should still experience dysphoria albeit on a less frequent/severe scale. When you read the article you will see that this is not what is going on, the TS will have a sex drive (although reduced) and not experience any dysphoria until after they begin introducing high levels of testosterone in their bodies which then begin to masculinize. It is this Masculinization that triggers the dysphoria, not the sex drive itself.
In my opinion this is even more proof that the TS is more likely to have a female brain/identity, and that reactions such as these are what would be expected for any natal female who was subjected to a similar treatment.


If a natal female (not suffering from GID) were given large amounts of Testosterone her sex drive/libido will definitely increase to male levels, and while she may have no problem with this, I can guarantee that when she begins to develop male secondary characteristics such as Facial hair, deep voice, etc.. she will begin to suffer symptoms that are identical to those experienced by pre-op MTF transsexuals.
Now would we consider her "dysphoria" to be "Triggered" by a testosterone fueled sex drive? Or would we recognize that she is a female and therefore the masculization of her body is what has triggered the dysphoria?

This unwillingness to compare libidos and sexuality of (successful) post-op MTF transsexuals with those of natal females is the root of what is wrong with the proponents of Autogynephelia.
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Firelight

As I've already mentioned, Meow, I am absolutely positively CERTAIN that you are a girl. There is no doubt in my mind at all.

I remember having very similar masturbation experiences (specifically the desire to become female ebbing after the climax), and it caused me to hesitate as well. But once I started really transitioning, I found that the sexual desire was just my way of expressing what I wanted... and once I had a better way of dealing with those feelings, I didn't need to express them to myself only through that sort of activity.

For many, the use of hormones diminishes your... "need" for tha activity anyway. I'm going to say this is probably true in my case. Although I was never exactly an everyday sort of person anyway, I very rarely think about pleasuring myself and instead concentrate on actually BEING what I've wanted to be.

You'll be fine. You might have some worries at first and even a false start or two (I did), but in the end, I have no doubt in my mind that transitioning is for you, girly.
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MeowMeansMeow

Thanks, Firelight! The thing is, I don't *feel* like a girl, not right now. I think this is an interesting difference, classic transsexuals seem to say that they always felt like they were already girls on the inside, in the wrong body. I don't feel like that; I just know I *want* to be a girl. I wonder if this disqualifies me from the transsexual club? Does it make me a wannabe? A fetishist?

And at what point will I grow to regard myself as a girl? Ever? Or will it all be one big trip down self delusion, plastic surgery, SRS, hormones, and at the end of it what I end up with is just me, the same, feeling like a fraud now in a dress? I mean, I have lived my 42 years as a male. I guess I have a long road to travel, whatever happens... it's going to be a humdinger, that's for sure!

Sorry if this is more forthright than is proper, I don't want to offend anybody. I'm not attacking any interpretation of what it means to be transsexual... it's just that there are such big doubts about what exactly I am, and what the proper course is for me in the long run. I really have no idea. I know there's this big feminine side to me - it doesn't manifest by prancing around in a tutu, but rather in a general aversion to the more "male" and aggressive modes of behavior, in favor of compassion and caring. I see these as being the positive feminine qualities. When I was a kid at school, I was the only one who seemed to care when a bird flew into the window. Everybody else (it was an all-boys school) was laughing at the dumb bird, but I was the one going outside to see if it was ok or not. You have a tough time as a kid when you are the one who wants to let the wasp out rather than kill it. Not exactly the best of times for me, especially being as confused about pantyhose as I was. Talk about messed up kid, it's a wonder I'm still here really.

Boy, I wish we had the internet back in the 1980's. About the only reference I had available to me (we lived in a farmhouse out in the country back in the UK) was a really old set of encyclopedias, where I was able to find an entry on hermaphroditism, but that was about it. I had no idea there was any possibility to do stuff like transition. Sigh.

Meow
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Luna!

To tell the truth, I don't know that I feel like a girl, either. I don't know what girls feel like, or boys, or the few that aren't either one. I feel like *me*, and that feeling just happens to (mostly) overlap with what I think a girl feels like. It's entirely possible that I'm way off.

I don't even hate the physical 'male' aspects. Some of them are very irritating, but I've never thought about any drastic measures to remove them by my own hand.

Official-sounding people have nonetheless agreed that I'm very likely transsexual. If I am, you seem like you're probably one too.

Living for 42 years as a male is going to affect you quite profoundly. It's probably the only life you've ever known; it doesn't seem possible, even 'right' to change something like that at first. I'm only 23, and I have trouble getting over those ideas; I can't imagine what it must be like for you. But these doubts do not disqualify either of us from claiming that we are who we feel we are.

As for what to do? That's entirely up to you. Everyone has their own path to wherever they're going; you'll find yours eventually, I'm sure. Try not to worry about the destination.

To quote a song (that you probably don't recognize, but what the hey):
Quote from: Realize by Nami Tamaki
I don't know where I'll end up,
But I believe I'll get there.
I'll let my thoughts flow for now.

The road looks the longest from its starting point. Don't be fooled. ^_^
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