MTF's and male privilege

[MaggieB]

My wife and I got into an argument about how I benefited from male privilege and that makes it inappropriate for me to discuss women's rights. I explained that I didn't get much benefit from being male and in fact had been abused repeatedly by men throughout my life. Her point is that being on the male team at all is enough to be guilty.

I began to ponder these issues and thought I would bring them up here for discussion.

Should MTF's be mindful that we are seen as being beneficiaries of male privilege?

Are we all guilty of oppressing women no matter what we did for the women's movement in our lives?

Are we guilty by simply by genetics?

Is is proper for transwomen to discuss women's issues with natal women?

Maggie

[rejennyrated]

My wife and I got into an argument about how I benefited from male privilege and that makes it inappropriate for me to discuss women's rights. I explained that I didn't get much benefit from being male and in fact had been abused repeatedly by men throughout my life. Her point is that being on the male team at all is enough to be guilty.

I began to ponder these issues and thought I would bring them up here for discussion.

Should MTF's be mindful that we are seen as being beneficiaries of male privilege?

Are we all guilty of oppressing women no matter what we did for the women's movement in our lives?

Are we guilty by simply by genetics?

Is is proper for transwomen to discuss women's issues with natal women?

Maggie

Clearly there isn't going to be a single answer to this and the basic premise is flawed because not all transwomen go through the same life path.

For example although I was technically male I was one of the very lucky few who had an "almost" female childhood. For various reasons, the full import of which I didn't discover until decades later, I grew up, with my parents help, somewhat in between genders.

I transitioned permanently and had SRS before my adult life had really begun. In effect I have lived almost all my life as a female although technically I am still Trans MtF, a label that I am happy to wear. But clearly I represent a different prospect to someone who transitions at 40+ having already risen to the top of some corporate tree as all my significant achievements in life have been in the guise of a woman.

Genetics doesn't work either, because there are natal XY females and indeed XX males - they are rare but they do exist.

So I don't think there is a right answer here other than to say that it depends entirely on the transwoman and, maybe in part, how early in life they transitioned.

[Nero]

Should MTF's be mindful that we are seen as being beneficiaries of male privilege? Yes. The same as I am mindful that I enjoy white privilege. No matter how a male bodied person behaves or presents themselves, they still benefit from being seen as men and are not subject to the treatment women receive based on their sex. They may be seen as effeminate men, as less than ideal, etc. but they still benefit from not receiving the treatment women do. This changes with transition of course. They also benefit from not being raised in a world where they are considered second class citizens based on their sex. This was not their choice or fault, however, being raised female has certain effects on the psyche. The more and more I pass as male, the more I realize the truth of this.

Are we all guilty of oppressing women no matter what we did for the women's movement in our lives? No. The system is what it is. Male or male-born people are not at fault; it's just the way it is.

Are we guilty by simply by genetics? No.

Is is proper for transwomen to discuss women's issues with natal women? Most definitely. I think transwomen are in an excellent position to speak on women's rights if they so choose. They are women raised as men only to be thrust into into a world where they are suddenly seen as less than. Who better to understand the female condition? Ciswomen lack the point of reference. There's no woman in a better position to fight for women's rights than one who has fought for her womanhood while turning her back on male privilege.

[Keroppi]

Are we all guilty of oppressing women no matter what we did for the women's movement in our lives? No. The system is what it is. Male or male-born people are not at fault; it's just the way it is.

And the feminist who found all male guilty and all women opposed are themselves the very one guilty of reinforcing that notion.

[Nero]

And the feminist who found all male guilty and all women opposed are themselves the very one guilty of reinforcing that notion.

Hi Keroppi,
I'm not sure what you mean.

[placeholdername]

No. The system is what it is. Male or male-born people are not at fault; it's just the way it is.

I would disagree with that.  I would say that male privilege came into existence through the action of men/males, but that it stays in existence through the action of both males and females.

So I would say that if MtFs shouldn't be able to discuss women's rights because of 'male privilege', then many if not most women shouldn't be able to either!  Which of course is ridiculous.

The problem is in the categorization.  'You are or were X, so your opinion on Y is less relevant'.  I think people's opinions should be judged on the merit of the opinion itself.  Anything else is just another form of bigotry.

[Nero]

I would disagree with that.  I would say that male privilege came into existence through the action of men/males, but that it stays in existence through the action of both males and females.

So I would say that if MtFs shouldn't be able to discuss women's rights because of 'male privilege', then many if not most women shouldn't be able to either!  Which of course is ridiculous.

The problem is in the categorization.  'You are or were X, so your opinion on Y is less relevant'.  I think people's opinions should be judged on the merit of the opinion itself.  Anything else is just another form of bigotry.

True. Nobody's opinion is more or less important than anyone else's but transsexual people would seem to have an advantage at seeing both sides of the privilege thing.

[tekla]

Yeah know, I always wondered about that entire male privilege/white privilege.  Historically sure, but I look out and see all sorts of women, all sorts of not white people doing very well.  They do seem to have something in common in that they are in some way or another highly educated, extremely motivated, supremely confident.  So I wonder about statements like They may be seen as effeminate men, as less than ideal, etc. but they still benefit from not receiving the treatment women do. in that I think most of the men I've ever met would much rather have a strong woman to work with than an effeminate male.  Growing up as an effeminate male is pretty brutal and most have lost all motivation and confidence which I think is the real key to the whole privilege deal. Yes it is there, yes it may be far easier for some to get there, but unless your real rich it tends not to be so much confirmed as taken.

But everyone is involved in the discussion of woman's rights.  Because woman's rights involves everyone.  How is anything going to change if you exclude all males from that conversation?  So men, women, Tpersons, kids, adults - everyone is in on this, because it affects everyone in the end.

[placeholdername]

Growing up as an effeminate male is pretty brutal and most have lost all motivation and confidence which I think is the real key to the whole privilege deal.

Maybe we should start getting on about born-in-the-right-sex privilege or heteronormative privilege and so on .

But yes, I agree with everything you said.

[MaggieB]

Should MTF's be mindful that we are seen as being beneficiaries of male privilege? Yes. The same as I am mindful that I enjoy white privilege. No matter how a male bodied person behaves or presents themselves, they still benefit from being seen as men and are not subject to the treatment women receive based on their sex. They may be seen as effeminate men, as less than ideal, etc. but they still benefit from not receiving the treatment women do. This changes with transition of course. They also benefit from not being raised in a world where they are considered second class citizens based on their sex. This was not their choice or fault, however, being raised female has certain effects on the psyche. The more and more I pass as male, the more I realize the truth of this.

This is a point that she made. I will never know what she endured as a girl being raised as a second class citizen. However, as an effeminate child, I was beaten and treated terribly by boys and men because I wasn't male enough.  It gave them license to abuse. That is different than being dismissed as a girl. I didn't see any girls being beaten by gangs of boys. Of course some were being beaten by their fathers as my wife was.

My point was that as a gender variant boy, I wasn't welcomed into the boy's club, instead they nearly killed me. Then later in life when I could not understand or deal with male bonding or pissing contents in grad school or the workplace, I was again abused or dismissed. Ultimately, I could not progress in my company so quit, never to be hired again. I started my business to get away from men.

So to be lumped into a pool of the common male really hurts. I understand why she hates men, but I have the scars to show that they weren't good to me either.

Maggie

[Keroppi]

Hi Keroppi,
I'm not sure what you mean.

Basically this:

I would disagree with that.  I would say that male privilege came into existence through the action of men/males, but that it stays in existence through the action of both males and females.

[Sarah Louise]

I guess I have seen "male privilege", I have also seen "female privilege" and I have seen "management privilege" (where managers can get away with something that others would get fired for).

But truthfully I would have loved to have been born a woman and been considered (by some, not by me) as a second class citizen.

Sarah L.

[Flan]

Late reply since I'm under the weather today, but I plugged this bit in the wiki https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans-misogyny based on the pams house blend piece on men who fear to be minus penis.

One theory to this is that gender variant anatomical males "threaten" the (personal) masculinity or dominance of males in a patriarchal social structure. This is often tied to misogyny  on the belief that women are "lesser" then men.

or, so called privilege is based on control, rationalizing it by thinking others as "less then" (males or white persons, depending on context)

just my 2 cents (reposted)

[Janet_Girl]

Even Men can discuss women's issues.  Some of them even have the woman's point of view, because they see the underlying issue, complaint or goal.

Just because they are Men does not mean that they don't care about women's issues.  Especially if there is a woman in their life.

And I really think that this 'Male Privilege" is just a smoke screen to cover-up the possible loss of their control.  Which they only have because women give them the permission to have it.  That is what the Feminist Movement was showing Men.  Women can and do control a lot more than they we give themselvesourselves credit  for.



JMHO,
Janet

[sarahF]

So what are you saying Maggie,we are not truly excepted by male or female We must be some where inbetween. Nice
Sarah

[insanitylives]

What's this "privilege" you speak of.

Coming from the other side of the issue, I've been told I should feel "privileged that men want to be with me, and that I'm supposed to be escorted (yes, i live in that kind of town) places".

It's not a privilege if you you don't want it.

I can think of quite a few damn good reasons why anyone wouldn't want to be a man. I can also think of just as many reasons why anyone wouldn't want to be a woman.
Yes, I would far rather be male, but I can understand why people transition away from it (Now why can't we just switch bodies?)

Feel free to yell at me if I'm being out of line, but I feel your wife was completly disrespecting you, by saying that you're guilty (of what? being born the wrong sex?) because of your body.
Men can care about womens rights..why the heck can't you?

[K8]

I was raised white and male.  I benefited from both of those, although I've lived places where being white was a disadvantage.  I was also raised middle-class in the US, with expectations of education and achievement.  I benefitted from all of that.

In cultures that make a place for their transgendered, we are often celebrated because of our ability to see both sides, to experience both.

One example is that as Kate I am more vulnerable than I was.  I knew this would be true, but to experience it is a different thing.  When I mention this to women, they all go: Well, of course.  When I mention it to men, they go: Huh?

You don't have to be one of the oppressed to understand that oppression hurts the oppressive society as well as the oppressed.

As a great man said: "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." (Martin Luther King Jr)

Maggie, your wife is saying you don't understand what it was like to live her life.  But it is also true that she doesn't understand what it was like to live yours.  We are all different; we are all the same.

- Kate

[Nero]

Yeah know, I always wondered about that entire male privilege/white privilege.  Historically sure, but I look out and see all sorts of women, all sorts of not white people doing very well.  They do seem to have something in common in that they are in some way or another highly educated, extremely motivated, supremely confident.  So I wonder about statements like They may be seen as effeminate men, as less than ideal, etc. but they still benefit from not receiving the treatment women do. in that I think most of the men I've ever met would much rather have a strong woman to work with than an effeminate male.  Growing up as an effeminate male is pretty brutal and most have lost all motivation and confidence which I think is the real key to the whole privilege deal. Yes it is there, yes it may be far easier for some to get there, but unless your real rich it tends not to be so much confirmed as taken.

Yes, but not to take anything away from what effeminate males go through, female born persons go through something different. Yes, males who don't conform to the status quo suffer, they surely do. But it's not the same as what female born persons go through, just as surely as anything I suffer through as a white person is not the same thing as a person of color goes through. I may suffer as a poor white person, but I will not be subject to the same treatment a black person is. That's all I'm saying.

[Erica2Sweet]

Should MTF's be mindful that we are seen as being beneficiaries of male privilege?

I think its always wise to be mindful of someone else's point-of-view when discussing or debating anything. Especially if the resulting conversation may end with one of the participants sleeping on the couch. 

Are we all guilty of oppressing women no matter what we did for the women's movement in our lives?

I don't think so. People are entitled to whatever opinion they wish on the matter, but I personally would be offended if I were actually accused of oppressing women.

Is is proper for transwomen to discuss women's issues with natal women?

I certainly don't view it as improper. As with any good conversation, as long as one brings a thinking cap, I don't see a problem.

Regardless of genitalia you possess, if you do get out and mingle with John Q. Public and generally are perceived as a woman, you're probably going to have a tangible interest in some womens issues. It seems to me this holds true especially if you are a MtoF entering the workforce.

[Alyssa M.]

Okay, I was going to answer, but Nero already answered for me. Basically, everything he said is what I would say. The only thing I'd add is that we are all culpable for the patriarchy, some more than others.

I think there tends to be a misunderstanding of what privilege really means, so I'll address that:

Here's the thing about privilege: everyone has some. Nearly everyone lacks some. So all of us trans women who had a rough time growing up among boys, well, that just means we didn't have cis privilege or macho privilege or whatever. Everyone recognizes the gradations of privilege based on looks and femininity among women; well men have that too.

I had an awful childhood, but it's still as plain as day to me that I have experienced male privilege. In conversation, people have listened to me even when my ideas weren't as worthwhile, or when I was saying the same thing as a woman who was being ignored. I was encouraged to go into math and science in ways that my sisters weren't, despite two very supportive, mathematical parents and a very progressive school atmosphere. I haven't had to worry about studying late on campus and walking home alone. However much I hated how I looked, nobody ever told me I need to lose weight, take better care of my fingernails, wear more or less makeup, etc. Nobody ever leered at me in a threatening way when I went to the beach. I haven't had to worry when I went to parties that I'd get something slipped into my drink and wake up to a man raping me.

Being raised a boy with sisters shows you a lot about how boys and girls, men and women are treated differently in this society. Most of it is subtle. It's just in the air; it's as easy as breathing for us all to participate.

No, I didn't benefit as much as many men I've known. I've always been seen as something between effeminate and just plain peculiar. And the pre-transitional lack of cis privilege (which is quite different from the post-transitional experience) sure as hell sucks, in a way I don't expect any cis person can ever fully grasp. But that doesn't mean I wasn't afforded male privilege.