Do you ever feel bitter, and that LGB have it easy?

[Marie731]

In that way they are the same as we are.  They can assimilate too so long as they choose not to show the world their lifestyle and let others assume they are heterosexual.

True, but in their case, they'd be repressed, hiding, not able to be who they are or love who they want openly.

In my case, assimilation was the goal, my way to *stop* hiding and be who I am.

Assimilation for the GLB is a prison. Assimilation for me led to freedom

[Barbara]

Come on, you and we, all know "T" is the hardest road to go down.

[Jay]

I do feel as if we are left out a lot. We have a Pride network at work and its always about GLB and not transgendered. It does get my goat a lot. But there isn't much you can do about it. Plus about 99.9% of GLB people look at me like I am some sort of freak.. guess they aren't as accepting as they like to make out. 

I am bitter...

Jay

[Marie731]

Come on, you and we, all know "T" is the hardest road to go down.

We don't all know that. It certainly *can* be hard for some people. But experiences vary. For some, transition leads to their being outcasts. For others, transition allows them to finally fit in and be "normal."

Contrast that to GLB's who are perpetually at the mercy of social prejudice. There is no "escape" for them, no resolution, no way to put it "behind" them and move on.

[Asfsd4214]

We don't all know that. It certainly *can* be hard for some people. But experiences vary. For some, transition leads to their being outcasts. For others, transition allows them to finally fit in and be "normal."

Contrast that to GLB's who are perpetually at the mercy of social prejudice. There is no "escape" for them, no resolution, no way to put it "behind" them and move on.

But conversely, and again I can only speak for my own experiences, while there might be the hope for escape for us, there's no getting back the time lost before you get there. It's gone forever.

I'd still rather be gay than trans.

[Pippa]

I feel that we have been grouped where we don't belong.   Despite being a MTF transexual, I have never seen myself as gay and have never been sexually attracted to men.   The rest of the world likes to put people in boxes and to put transgender people in the same group as those whose sexuality is different from their heterosexual majority norm is the easiest fit.

I agree with Janet, we have issues with our gender and this is seperate from our sexuality.   Science and medical treatment recognise this unfortunately politicians, bureaucrats and the general population do not.

Amongst the gay community, I suspect that there are many who are also uncomfortable with the ts community being grouped with them.

All of the above said, once I have finished transition, do I become a lesbian?

[myles]

I spent 24 years in the gay community and am now part of the trans community. When I came out many years ago it was not easy to be gay. I lived in a conservative area and times were  different. I had to move out of my house while still in high school and support myself by working full time, because I was gay.  Members of my family would not speak to me for years. Being  gay back then was not accepted te way it is today.  From my perspective being trans today is like what being gay was back then. So the gay community has not always had it easy or been anywhere close to accepted by others. My mother is much more comfortable/accepting  of me being trans than she was of me being a lesbian. The way I look at it is that I have walked a similar path before, when I came out way back when, and while this is not easy I am familiar with how it goes. I can only hope that in 20 years being trans is accepted as much as being gay is today.
Myles

[Just Kate]

True, but in their case, they'd be repressed, hiding, not able to be who they are or love who they want openly.

In my case, assimilation was the goal, my way to *stop* hiding and be who I am.

Assimilation for the GLB is a prison. Assimilation for me led to freedom

Assimilation as a TS to me is the same as "repression, hiding, not able to be who they are" for the gays that hide their relationships from others.  A open gay person and an open TS person both involve allowing their inner self to show through in their lives without giving others the impression through omission or commission that they are just like the heterosexual normative person of their sex.

I have no problem with TS who choose to assimilate no more than I have a problem with GLB who do, but to say one represses while doing it while another doesn't I think is incorrect.  Gays are accepted because they are visible, the same must happen for the TS in order to have the same level of acceptance.

[tekla]

The reason that the LG folks have all that stuff is because they went out and created it.  The reason they have a voice is because they speak up.  Nothing ever changes because someone is out in the cold rain complaining about what's going on inside.  You have to take the effort to go in, join, work and participate.  And even that is not guaranteed, but its at least possible.

[Marie731]

Assimilation as a TS to me is the same as "repression, hiding, not able to be who they are" for the gays that hide their relationships from others.  A open gay person and an open TS person both involve allowing their inner self to show through in their lives without giving others the impression through omission or commission that they are just like the heterosexual normative person of their sex.

I have no problem with TS who choose to assimilate no more than I have a problem with GLB who do, but to say one represses while doing it while another doesn't I think is incorrect.  Gays are accepted because they are visible, the same must happen for the TS in order to have the same level of acceptance.

Great points!

The difference though, IMHO, is that a gay person is always doing something "different," in the sense of having same-sex relationships. They really can't "assimilate" into the mainstream, they can only hope to be accepted as being different, but just as valid.

Yes, there are those for whom being a transsexual becomes something of a open and proud "lifestyle," with TS cruises and TS seminars and TS bars and TS outings and... you get the idea. And for those people, "acceptance" is what they must hope and strive for. Acceptance for being different, but equally valuable. They set themselves apart from the mainstream as "transgender women" in a "transgender community" and demand to be considered equal, but not the "same." And sure, for those people, their struggles and aims are similar to the GLB.

But for me, it's just not part of my life. I don't hide it, but I don't "identify" as a TS either. I'm not "stealth," nor am I out and proud. I'm not part of any community outside of my neighbors, friends and family.

So by "assimilate" I don't mean I'm hiding or deceiving anyone, I just mean my life doesn't revolve around all this gender identity stuff. I just go to work and live my life without any thought of "gender issues" or doing "TS things," same as so-called normal people do. And if some people consider that deceptive or hiding, then that's really more telling about their issues more than mine.

[Asfsd4214]

"Acceptance" & "tolerance" is what you get when people know that you are NOT female in the first place. 

In other words......"Okay, I know you AREN'T female but I 'accept/tolerate' you as one anyway"

In the real world, far away from La La land, women don't get "accepted" or "tolerated" as female/women, we simply are female/women, and everyone knows that.

Great points!

The difference though, IMHO, is that a gay person is always doing something "different," in the sense of having same-sex relationships. They really can't "assimilate" into the mainstream, they can only hope to be accepted as being different, but just as valid.

Yes, there are those for whom being a transsexual becomes something of a open and proud "lifestyle," with TS cruises and TS seminars and TS bars and TS outings and... you get the idea. And for those people, "acceptance" is what they must hope and strive for. Acceptance for being different, but equally valuable. They set themselves apart from the mainstream as "transgender women" in a "transgender community" and demand to be considered equal, but not the "same." And sure, for those people, their struggles and aims are similar to the GLB.

But for me, it's just not part of my life. I don't hide it, but I don't "identify" as a TS either. I'm not "stealth," nor am I out and proud. I'm not part of any community outside of my neighbors, friends and family.

So by "assimilate" I don't mean I'm hiding or deceiving anyone, I just mean my life doesn't revolve around all this gender identity stuff. I just go to work and live my life without any thought of "gender issues" or doing "TS things," same as so-called normal people do. And if some people consider that deceptive or hiding, then that's really more telling about their issues more than minetev

I so completely agree with everything you both said.

It's like saying people with AIS or Swyer syndrome are being dishonest if they don't reveal that fact to everyone the meet (a sentiment I have actually heard in the past as well).

I do think it's being dishonest to withhold something like that from a serious partner, given that it's something they would probably want to know. But I don't see how withholding it from anyone else is deceptive.

If you're not planning to sleep with them, it's none of their business.

Call it deceit, stealth, whatever, but I don't see why people should even feel this need to be "out".

If we were truly "accepted", there would be no more need to divulge this fact of our medical history anymore than to withhold it.

I'm actually not too fond of the "openly proud trans" kinda mindset. In the same way that I think openly flamboyant gays don't do too many favors to the gays that act no different to any other guy.

If we want to be accepted, we need to show that we're not "trans" as opposed to male or female, we're trans as well as being male or female. Acting outside the norm doesn't help that perception.

I really don't want to sound like I'm trying or wanting to stop anyone expressing themselves however they like. I'm just saying that I don't think this "I am trans first and foremost" attitude is helpful to us as far as true acceptance.

Tolerance is not the same as acceptance. Trans acceptance should be that we're seen no differently to any other medical condition, and most of all that this isn't perceived a choice, either by personality or lifestyle. 

I never asked to or would have chosen to be TS, in the Transgender spectrum, GLBT, or whatever, and I don't feel any compelling desire to be apart of it any more than I have to be.

It's great that there are people sticking up for our rights as human beings, and some of the most inspirational people to me are the one's who dedicate themselves to showing that they're normal people, who just happen to have been born trans, out in the open. But that's not what I ever wanted to be about, and I don't feel like I should be forced to be "out" or made to feel guilty about it, when I never choose to be this way.

[gennee]

I think the T needs to get off of the the LGB coattails.  We really are fundamentally different with different issues!  The only thing we really had in common before was a shared distaste for all of us by society.  Now the LGB feels we are holding them back, and in truth, we can never gain the acceptance we desire while associating ourselves with them.

I've never felt bitter toward them.  Their current and past activists worked very hard to get them to where they are today, and while not every member of the LGB community contributed to their success, I am glad for them.  I do wish they'd stop being so damn whiny though (just finished reading the StopTheAvatar thread) - seems they can afford to be now considering all the gains they've made.

How are transgender people holding back GLB? For one thing it was transgender people who got gay liberation rolling. GLB was more concerned with assmilation rather than equality. We transgender people wear our identity. Sexuality is something that doesn't have to be revealed. We take a greater risk because we're out there. Lesbians weren't included when all the leadership positions were formed until they banded together and formed their own group.

Gennee

Gennee

[Marie731]

We transgender people wear our identity. Sexuality is something that doesn't have to be revealed.

When I walk out my door and enjoy my day, no one knows about my past. I'm just a normal woman doing her thing. I don't have to watch or change my actions in any way to "be myself." I'm not at any risk, even if superman uses his x-ray vision on me.

But when my gay neighbors walk out together, they have to worry about holding hands, kissing, or otherwise doing anything that indicates they're a "couple." They have to be careful. Every day. Even just living together "outs" them.

The T(G) holds back the GLB because the public will always have a problem with allowing male genitals into women's rooms. Seriously, it always come down to that.

[Kendall]

I am dealing with both coming out as bi-sexual and as at least gender-queer. The latter is more confusing to me. There is more clarity to being gay or bi than there is to "maybe I am not what my body shows." As to who gets treated worse - I do not think one should generalize too much. There is unfortunately enough fear, hate and prejudice to go around - and none of it is logical or entirely predictable.

As a bi-queer in transition I have experienced some fear and prejudice from people who are threatened by my lack of clarity. (Bi is supposedly gay too afraid to commit, and similarly gender-queer). Some people in a trans support group suspected me of being a sexual predator or pervert or something. My identity journey is not about sex for me. I'm so celibate I could be an honest priest if I was not Jewish. Fortunately for me this strain has not been frequent.

I think people experience difficulties no matter what, and it may not be possible to say which group has it worse. It is different for each person.

MY exposure at work to people who are homophobic suggests to me that to the outside world, the mundanes as it were, we are all lumped into a group they do no understand, sometimes fear, and sometimes attack. Trans or gay, we are not them. They think. Mistakenly. At the core we are all human and have similar needs and variable traits.

It help if we could be more clear about our individual experiences, feelings and needs without needing someone else to validate what we know for ourselves. When I am confused, I sometimes look outside for help, and at those times. I feel very vulnerable. I compare to others. If I am not careful I can only see negatives and get very depressed. or judgmental and angry.

I think I am rambling. I appreciate looking at things in different ways, and sometimes I find there is no conclusion.

I am trying to say I think I live in both LGB and T worlds and see connections and differences. I think some individuals from both have it very hard and others have it relatively easy. I think individuals in both groups are capable of prejudice and meaness = and some individuals are capable of great compassion.

[Icephoenyx]

I dunno, when I came out to my mom she said that she would rather me be trans than gay....I thought that was interesting.

I think the issue it that most people have a hard time distinguishing 'gender' and 'orientation.' The media does not help. To be honest, I don't even know the difference between the two, but people just do what 'feels' right to them.

Chrissi

[Alyssa M.]

Sometimes I feel bitter about being trans.

Sometimes I think queer cis folk have it easy -- I just don't get how anyone could possibly think it matters the slightest who other people sleep with, so I am slightly oblivious to the reality of homophobia. I have a friend who is, like me, a trans lesbian, and she sometimes acts as though she feels the same way. But then I see something that reminds me that homophobia is real.

I'm certainly not bitter toward cis queer folk, at least not in general. The ones I have met have welcomed me with open arms, literally, as in, hugs and all, as well as figuratively.

[Dante]

I kinda feel feel that way sometimes. There aren't very many transgender/transsexual people, whereas being G/L/B is becoming pretty common. For example, my school has a Gay-Straight Alliance club. One of my bi friends is a member. We have PE together, and I was feeling bad because to do a bench press I have to lay down and highlight my boobs so I was saying that a Gay-Straight Alliance leaves out trans people like myself, and that it should be an LGBT support group instead. There should be some kind of program for LGBT people to have a seperate PE program if they want to. The T does end up being silent.

On an unrelated note, why is it LGBT? It seems to make more sense in this order: GLBT.

[K8]

On an unrelated note, why is it LGBT? It seems to make more sense in this order: GLBT.

I've seen it both ways.  I first learned it GLBT but, as a pushy woman, I tend to like it LGBT.

- Kate

[tekla]

As a speaker at the TransMarch said a couple of years ago, when she was in the process of calling it 'unpronounceable acronym day' the letters change according to who is more depressed that day.

[ICatchDinosaurs]

Nah, not really. (On the bitter part. They definitely have it easier)
I don't care if people have misconceptions about me and I don't exactly want some pity party over me.
"Oh, Kennedy..he has it SO hard!"
No.
Just no.
It's annoying.
Some of those LGB rights people are so annoying that I want to..punch a baby.
I don't want any of those for the transgendered community.
I'm sure there already are, but there's less of them.

You don't need that group anyways, by the way.
If they don't make room for the "t" portion of their acronym, that's their loss for not including you.