Mild argument with someone

[S.Heidi]

Hi, I'm new, names Heidi. I had an argument with a friend, and I need help making sense of all this

Last night I was conversing with a friend of mine, she knows about me crossdressing and spreading to be more feminine. She is supportive but an argument spewed forth. She asked if I wanted to go shopping on friday, which I had to pass since I'm quite poor. I told her I went out the day before and got a bra thats too big (36a), I hate all that extra space since I lack necessary cleavage.
I told her that I didn't like the big bra and pads because it was deceiving and you're losing that comfort of natural touch (someone will be groping a pad.. not you), (my body and chest can very mildly fill in a 32a). I use 32a which in a way I actually somewhat fill in, not too much fill, there really isn't alot, but the curves are there... even if they appear small, they still feel more real than having a large empty space from my chest to the big bra.

She replied "Wearing high heels, plucking out your hair (eyebrows, and body hair) and hiding junk is already deceptive"

Her: "The whole fact that you're trying to look like the opposite sex is deceptive"

Her: "And what exactly should the opposite sex wear? because im a woman should i wear what you do? I mean you feel like a woman, thats fine, but youre making yourself one based solely on appearance"

I dress the way I want to dress as me being my own woman. I'm not dressing how I think women should dress, its my personal expression.

We've been having a lot of arguments since I told her. She treats every subject of women or people as either being repressed or repressive. Bras for example are repressive. Make up, high heels, repressive. Me dressing as a women how I want to dress she makes it seem like im dressing how women should dress(repressive)

I never saw bras as repressive, they're more articles of clothing to be expressive. I like the idea of something thats unobtainable or hidden, bras deliver that quality, that when its off its more special.
Women have that ability, they're able to express that side or that quality. Men I'm sure do, but I never liked that quality. I don't like the options of expressions as a man.

I'm not saying everyone should wear bras, my argument is that people should be who they feel they should be. A female that dresses as a man dresses as she wants, not as how men should dress. Be your own comfort.

What's bothering me is that transgender is such a touchy subject. I do what I do because thats what I feel comfortable. And for someone to tell me that I'm doing it for different reasons, like dressing that way cause thats how women should dress is saddening. And I know that this goes to women too, from a womens perspective when a woman dresses with high heels, plucked eyebrows than they're "fake." And when a male does it (again) he dresses how women *should* be.
A woman dressing with high heels, eye makeup and plucked eyebrows could be doing so because thats what she finds comforting. If a male does, thats cause he has the same tastes.

But I feel so confused right now I don't know if I make any sense with my argument. Please HEEEELp

[LordKAT]

A woman dressing with high heels, eye makeup and plucked eyebrows could be doing so because thats what she finds comforting.

I don't beleive this. A woman does these things to look attractive, no more and no less. If you are comfortable with it thats all good, but the reasons for doing those things are attraction.

[Sarah Louise]

It sounds like your friend is still digesting the information you gave her about crossdressing.  I don't think she is comfortable with the idea yet, give her time.

If she is a good friend, she should come around.

Sarah L.

[S.Heidi]

Attraction can't be comforting?
Post Merge: January 06, 2010, 03:21:27 PM
Natural beauty can be comforting, and attractive. Covering your eyes with make up can be comforting, and attractive. To me its like wearing certain rings or jewelry, creating an ensemble to make the night, the occasion and your feelings. Why can't make up be any different?  It's just as comforting as someone saying "my hair is too long, i must cut it to a comfortable length"

[noeleena]

Hi...Heidi.

Oh dear . So who s the woman here why the agro . or is it the i cant accept my self for who i am ....
    Hey  . Iv had some thing along those line s except they wont accept who i am.   not many people i might add.
  Im getting the idear your friend is a femenist . or some thing like that . to me it s like some lesbain s wont accept me as a woman . because i dont have a womb . so does that stop me from being a woman . no .   you just accept your self for who you are . & to how you dress or what you wear . dont worry about it .
     just because your friend has different idears . does not make her  right . & how others dress its a individual thing .
    Some times its better not to say any thing . more like she has some probs with you . so as said give her time . you just be your self .
  dont let it get to you ...

   ...noeleena...

[EveMarie]

hey Heidi, sounds like someone is a bit confused. Your topic reads "Mild argument..." and I'm glad to see it's "mild" (operative word). From what you say it sounds like she's trying to belittle you slightly. When she says "deceive..." retort with it's not deception, but more how I feel comfortable, after all vanity plays a huge part in being yourself. If you want to look pretty as a woman, then by all means look pretty, and do it for yourself. I have the same feeling about bras, I wear a 38B (and fill it nicely naturally) but the suggestion of using pads or "forms", would (to me) destroy the feel of being natural. I don't mind being small but I do mind if the touch is fake!
My argument would be that you want to look attractive for yourself, and if in the process of doing that you happen to look pretty and attractive to others than that's not being deceptive, it's being comfortable in your body and mind.

Do try to keep the "mild" level where it is though.
good luck luv, Evie

[barbie]

I guess your friend is an open-minded and caring person based on your message.

Looking attractive can require time and pain. Wearing a neck tie is not comfortable for most men, but men wear it to look better. For me, wearing tight jeans and high heels is not comfortable, but I wear to look better.

Regarding bras, I wear them because some strange people comment that my chest looks too flat when I am enfemme. I do not like hearing such comments. I wear 34A bras while exercising outdoors and my wife wash them in the washing machine.

Nearly everyday, I pluck my eyebrows and beards. It requires a lot of time, but I believe I look better by doing it.

Yesterday, my little daughter commented like "Mom should not have beards" while looking carefully my chin. I did not pluck during the past few days.

Barbie~~

[jill_cd_girl]

I think the wording must be done with care. I can see her point, especially after the initial remark about wearing padded bras as being deceptive. What comes across from that is that if you use padded bras, then you're being disingenuous and deceptive. While I agree (with her) that that is a bit contentious, I think what you meant was that you wanted to feel the clothes against your skin, and you don't want there to be a padding between your breasts and anyone else's touch. So I think it may be all based on a misunderstanding.

Also, whether someone is being deceptive or not does depend a lot on intention. If you want to deceive someone into thinking you're a female, then such an intention can be taken as deceptive. But if you're intention is to present yourself as womanly as possible in order to express your femininity, then any 'mistake' that someone may make in thinking you're a gendered woman is not the result of any deception on your part.

[spacial]

Really, this sounds to me that she has assumed the role of your guide and you have not been following.

Perhaps you should have gone out shopping with her. When girls go shopping it generally means spending loads of time looking and dreaming about things. Trying makup samples. Perhaps trying stuff on.

But, you tell her you went out, without her, bought a bra and don't like it.

She feels rejected.

Now, get back to her, give her a groveling apology and hope she forgives you.

[Ms Jessica]

more or less agreeing with the general sentiment:

it sounds like your friend just hasn't fully accepted things yet.  If you aren't happy with the bra you bought, any chance you can return it?  Even if you cut the tags off, it's usually not a big deal unless it's been worn. 

also, her reaction isn't uncommon.  my wife was the same way-- dressing or acting like a woman isn't the same thing as being a woman, and many women feel that way-- they don't want to feel that the only thing that makes them women is how they dress, or whether they engage in stereotypical behaviors.  Your friend, to an extent, is interpreting your actions exactly that way, despite the fact that you're saying people should be free to dress and express themselves however they want. 

From my own experience, there are several parts to resolving this:
She needs time to adjust to the new you. 

You need time to consolidate your gender identity.  It's not all about clothes, but clothes help with the way that others perceive you, and gender is at least partly a social construct. 

You're also going through that phase that every girl goes through-- trying out all the make up and clothes and figuring out what works for you, what helps you express yourself, and what makes you comfortable.  I think it's very disorienting for adults to see another adult acting, essentially, like a teenager (I don't mean anything bad by that, we've all been there.  It's just that phase of figuring things out.  Most girls do it in their teen years, and are done with thick eyeliner and blue eyeshadow by their mid-twenties.  I was doing some of that just last year.  )

[Nicky]

Just to add something as to why you don't want to have a bra that needs to be filled with other stuff. I think it is to do with wanting to feel authentic. I've felt the same way and do as you do for that reason. When you don't have anything in there but your own flesh it feels like those curves are your curves, it is a nice feeling. I don't think it is a about deception, more authenticity.

Certainly I think we buy into social ideals of feminin beauty just like everyone else does. Perhaps it is repressive?  But for you it is probably more like liberation - getting out of the repression of not being able to wear such things as a 'man'. Just tell her that her saying you can't wear what you like is repressing you 

Also we don't often aim to dress how we think women should, rather how we think women do currently dress. But this takes practise - we tend to go through the teenaged thing first I think. If we want to look like woman you don't do that by looking like something else.

[S.Heidi]

Sorry I haven't replied lately, Its been a busy semester. Good work coming along yada yada. Anywho, things are good. Later on the day or day after the argument with the girl I opened up to my feminine studies female friend. I opened up easily to her, mostly because I wanted to get straight to the argument. (I love arguments by the way, it helps untangle things)
My feminine studies friend was a nice talk (we went underwear shopping at her favorite store last nite!) Shes been androgynous her whole life, doesn't care for sex but like me shares common grounds for clothing and self expression. We share alot of feelings for underwear (bras and all) and how they accentuate the body and self expression (sorry if I sound redundant, blame the nice glass of red wine.) She offered to give me a belly button piercing, and we talked about feminine tattoos and piercing.
I opened up alot to her last night and we talked about my feelings of my situation, how it all started and where it might or might not go.
But other than that things are good.
Had a good couple talks with my mom too.