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HRT -Medical Issues

Started by KrisT9, December 21, 2009, 01:38:26 PM

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KrisT9

I have read from an MD's standard of care document that Estrogen (Estrodiol) does increase the risk of thombotic events (stroke, heart attack). Morbidity due to stroke or heart attack strikes absolute terror in me. I do not like this additional risk factor.

We know well that genetic women have less risk of this than genetic males until advanced age.
What is the reason why Estrogen replacement form MtoF transgenders would be greater than that of either genetic males or females? Could this be result of unknown reaction between the increased Estrogen and the residual Testosterone or DHT in the body?

Is the risk mechanism itself changes in Cholesterol or Tri-glycerides? Or is it changes in coagulation itself? Coagulation is an surprisingly complex process, in terms of molecular biology, in that there are 12 co-factors and enzymes involved with it.

I know some of you have medical background. Any comments would be helpful and appreciated.
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Hannah

I'm not 100% clear on the question so please forgive me if I'm going the wrong direction with it. As far as the increased risk of clots, estradiol is metabolized and eliminated by the liver and one of the byproducts of this process is an enzyme that signals clot factor. We bypass a lot of this risk by getting it through injection, dissolving it through the mucous membrane under the tongue or through transdermal patches. There is still the action of the liver at work, but by skipping the digestive tract we achieve higher circulating levels with lower doses. Rather than going through the stomach and intestines and liver, with only a fraction of the initial amount surviving to do any good while adding tons of risk, putting it straight into the bloodstream skips the initial destruction and clot enzyme production by the liver to a great degree.

Also, the use of bioidentical estradiol is a big thing. Estrogen made from horse pee is not bio identical, so when our bodies break it down there are strands of junk left over which it doesn't know what to do with. Bioidentical estradiol can be broken down completely because it is identical to human estradiol.

As far as the risk comparison, I think that's subjective. Remember a genetic girls estradiol never touches her liver or digestive tract, at least not to the extent that it touches ours. I would imagine that's why we see a statistical difference in risk factor, but when you factor in things like quitting smoking (duh), decent diet and a reasonable amount of exercise the risk floor drops out.

I understand your fear of cardiovascular events. Last October I became the oldest genetic male in my family to not have had a heart attack. Really, as long as you follow the smoking and exercise guidelines you should be golden. There are horror stories all over that will scare the crap out of you, but this is do or die after all. I have a friend who works as an EMT and won't drive his family on the freeway because of all the carnage he sees up there almost daily. For every person that dies on the freeway though thousands pass by and hundreds were saved by their seatbelts. You kinda have to look at it that way or you'll be a nervous wreck and think your'e going to die every time you get a muscle cramp.

I read the other day that doctors are saying that hormone therapy doesn't shield women from heart disease like they initially thought, but I don't think that applies to us. I think we prolly see a drop in our overall inclination for cardiovascular ailments into the female risk categories.

This is all just talking about estradiol, where it gets really interesting is when you get into the chemistry of antiandrogens.
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gothique11

Wouldn't the type of estrogen (premarian vs estrace) have different affects on the clotting, etc.

I've been on HRT just over 3 1/2 years and I haven't had any health issues from HRT. *shrugs* I guess other things would come into play, too, like eating well, exercising, and so on.
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LordKAT

Gg who take birth control are also at the same risk for blood clots and smoking increases the clotting risks.  I don't think T had anything to do with it.
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KrisT9

First of all, I hope everyone had a good christmas and new year holiday.

Secondly, this explanation:

Quote from: Becca on December 21, 2009, 03:39:04 PM
I'm not 100% clear on the question so please forgive me if I'm going the wrong direction with it. As far as the increased risk of clots, estradiol is metabolized and eliminated by the liver and one of the byproducts of this process is an enzyme that signals clot factor. We bypass a lot of this risk by getting it through injection, dissolving it through the mucous membrane under the tongue or through transdermal patches. There is still the action of the liver at work, but by skipping the digestive tract we achieve higher circulating levels with lower doses. Rather than going through the stomach and intestines and liver, with only a fraction of the initial amount surviving to do any good while adding tons of risk, putting it straight into the bloodstream skips the initial destruction and clot enzyme production by the liver to a great degree.


makes a lot of sense to me. So it really is changes in the coagulation factors. I will research it out further.

Quote

Also, the use of bioidentical estradiol is a big thing. Estrogen made from horse pee is not bio identical, so when our bodies break it down there are strands of junk left over which it doesn't know what to do with. Bioidentical estradiol can be broken down completely because it is identical to human estradiol.


Yes, this is true. Perhaps there is qualitative data for the cardiovascular risk factors for both rbioidentical estrodiol and non-bioidentical estrodiol. A comparison would be useful.
Quote

This is all just talking about estradiol, where it gets really interesting is when you get into the chemistry of antiandrogens.

This is certainly true. Thanks for the information.
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Ms.Behavin

From my fading older memory back when I read everything about permarin and estrodol.  Permarin had a much higher clotting factor then with bio-identical estrodol.  Something like 200+ times more.  So clotting was a BIG worry in the old days.  The newer forms of estrogen if taken via injection or transdermal affect the body in the same way as would a GG.  Provided the dosage is simular.

Pills of course enter the body via the intestines and 97-98% of the estrogen in the pills is converted to other "Stuff"  including clotting factor in the liver via the hepetic artery.

I being a more mature woman have and only use the patch now a days. 

Beni
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KrisT9

According to the Wiki, there are 12 enzyme factors involved in coagulation. Coagulation is a rather complex process. Which of these enzymes are increased by Estrodiol? Are there supplements one can take to reduce the specific coagulation factors that are increased by Estrodiol therapy (other than aspirin, which is not very selective)?

Is there a blood test available that measures all of the coagulation factors?
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Cindy Stephens

While I may be wrong, I believe that a big factor in older forms of birth control/cardiac events is that the older forms used mega doses of the stuff.  Newer forms are designed to be as effective, without being as strong.  I also believe that if there were supplements or add-ins, then the manufacturers would put out some type of combo pill.  Their sales fell dramatically a few years ago when the use of hrt for menopause was questioned on a risk/reward basis.  I'm sure they would be promoting anything that would bring it back.  Don't smoke, control cholesterol of different types,  exercise and I personally take an 81 aspirin a day.
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Hannah

Tinkering with the the liver enzymes is prolly ill advised, and any such supplement would probably carry a side effect risk profile that was worse than  the minimal one from bioidentical estradiol. I agree this is an interesting subject but we are talking about advanced chemistry and endocrinology at this point, when really if it's healthy in other ways the body will maintain it's own chemical homeostasis without interference. Otherwise everyone who took estradiol would get a clot.
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Abby

QuoteCould this be result of unknown reaction between the increased Estrogen and the residual Testosterone or DHT in the body?

Like The Fonz's cologne reacting with his girls perfume?
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