Have I changed sex?

[Nero]

Split from the 'Your thoughts on the term 'transsexual' thread.

So if a person has bottom surgery, he/she is 'a transsexual'?

& here I was thinking that a male-bodied (I'm not going to use the acronym MTF because I detest it) person that has GRS is female & not 'a transsexual' anymore.  After all she's now a woman in body & mind, right?  what is 'transsexual' about that? .  Suggesting that a woman's still 'a transsexual' after GRS implies that transition 'never ends' & thus denies our experiences as post-op /fully transitioned women which is absurd & something that I detest too.

No. I meant that the term 'transsexual' implies changing sex. So, if a person does not have bottom surgery to change the sex organs, they haven't really 'changed sex' in a strictly physical sense. That doesn't mean they're not a transsexual in the broad sense of the word. Using the term transsexual in this manner does not imply that transsexuals remain transsexual, if they ever fit the literal sense of the word.

[Alyssa M.]

No. I meant that the term 'transsexual' implies changing sex. So, if a person does not have bottom surgery to change the sex organs, they haven't really 'changed sex' in a strictly physical sense. That doesn't mean they're not a transsexual in the broad sense of the word. Using the term transsexual in this manner does not imply that transsexuals remain transsexual, if they ever fit the literal sense of the word.

Why are you focusing on organs? That's not how biologists describe sex. Sex is based solely on your gametes, not the shape of your body. It doesn't matter what species you are. If you produce small, motile gametes, you're male; if you produce large non-motile ones, then you're female. End of story. That's true for animals, plants, and fungi alike. Some species only have one type of gametes, but most have two -- that is, most multi-cellular sexually-reproducing ones do. Will you have a hysterectomy? Well, that would mean you're half-way to being a man, just as Jake Barnes from The Sun Also Rises isn't really a man (well, that's what Hemingways seemed to think, anyway).

Luckily, that's has little to do with what "sex" means in everyday life, nor what "transsexual" means. "Transsexual" has never meant "someone who changes sex in the literal sense." It means someone who wants to or has or is in the process of changing as much about their physical sex as they can, or doesn't only because the results of that change seem inadequate. Or something like that. That's pretty much the definition used here at susans.org and in the medical and psychological communities. Alas, you seem to be getting fixated on genitals when you define sex, just like a lot of society, and that's really unfortunate. There's also voice, hair, skin, fat, muscle, hormones, brain, and a whole lot else that goes into what someone might call sex, ignoring the strict biological question of gamete size and speed.

[Nero]

Why are you focusing on organs? That's not how biologists describe sex. Sex is based solely on your gametes, not the shape of your body. It doesn't matter what species you are. If you produce small, motile gametes, you're male; if you produce large non-motile ones, then you're female. End of story. That's true for animals, plants, and fungi alike. Some species only have one type of gametes, but most have two -- that is, most multi-cellular sexually-reproducing ones do. Will you have a hysterectomy? Well, that would mean you're half-way to being a man, just as Jake Barnes from The Sun Also Rises isn't really a man (well, that's what Hemingways seemed to think, anyway).

Luckily, that's has little to do with what "sex" means in everyday life, nor what "transsexual" means. "Transsexual" has never meant "someone who changes sex in the literal sense." It means someone who wants to or has or is in the process of changing as much about their physical sex as they can, or doesn't only because the results of that change seem inadequate. Or something like that. That's pretty much the definition used here at susans.org and in the medical and psychological communities. Alas, you seem to be getting fixated on genitals when you define sex, just like a lot of society, and that's really unfortunate. There's also voice, hair, skin, fat, muscle, hormones, brain, and a whole lot else that goes into what someone might call sex, ignoring the strict biological question of gamete size and speed.

Well, I'm not trying to define the term for everyone. I guess in a way I feel like I'm not really changing my sex since I'm keeping the same genitals. I'm also afraid using the term transsexual implies I have (or am going to acquire) parts I don't. (I don't want anyone to get excited only to disappoint later  )
I apologize for giving the impression I was speaking in a universal sense.

Well, wait a minute - have I changed sex?
Post Merge: January 15, 2010, 08:04:28 PM
My body has changed - tits cut off, beard and body hair, clitoromegaly, muscular and body composition, smell, texture, etc.
My name has changed, my gender marker has changed...
But has my sex changed? I haven't had nor plan to have genital surgery or hysterectomy (will only do hysto if it becomes medically necessary).

So have I changed sex? Do I have a male sex now? (I'm talking sex and not gender. I do have a male gender.)

Anyway, Alyssa brought up a good point and I'm wondering what changing sex really means. so, what do you all think?

[Dana_W]

Well, wait a minute - have I changed sex?

Ooh, ooh! Geeky abstract concepts! I'll play!

You haven't changed your sex so much as conformed to your gender.

(Though... just to be clear... I'm going to say my sex has changed once I'm full-time. Cuz people not in the trans community will be expected to act like that toward me anyway and I don't really feel the need to engage them all in philosophical discussions. But, you know, that "full time" thing means more to me in terms of "changing sex" than the bottom surgery I intend to have when I can pay for it. I'm odd in that way I suspect.)

[FairyGirl]

We can modify our bodies, if that's where our sex resides. But we could also say our sex is between our ears, no? Have you changed your mind about what sex you are?

[Janet_Girl]

Interesting.  Based on the fact of producing small, motile gametes, I am not male by the definition.  Nor am I female by the definition.  I produce nether.  Yes it was by choice to have the procedure done.

So have I changed my sex?  No, my sex is being altered to match my gender.  But if you take into the fact that I don't produce any motile gametes, then I am neither.  Which is factual.  But I am still a woman, just as Nero is still a man.

Once we undertake transition we are only confirming our gender, and this will lead to altering our sex.  Some will continue on to the ultimate goal and some will not.  Does this alter the perception of our gender, aka sex?  Only if society discovers that we have not alter our genitalia, and that is only our business.

In reality I am a male bodied woman.  I am on a journey to alter that body to a more female-bodied form.

[Myself]

Basically, I hate the transsexual term and the sex/gender reassignment surgery term.
I use it as Genital Reconstruction Surgery instead and instead of sex change, sex correction (even that is not good enough at times but anything else would confuse even the doctors unless I tell them first).

I was born as a girl with a sex related development disorder, that's it.

So far (almost?) everyone I know pretty much agrees with me, they just needed to understand "Oh hey she's a girl" first (due to previously looking more as a boy making people automatically think - "hey it's a boy").

After that they pretty much know it wasn't a choice, they even ask questions "when did you know" "how did you know".
One time someone told me "It is really brave what you do", I said - "No, there is no choice in what I do!" and they said "It is brave to go say 'I have a problem' when everyone else would most likely believe everything is completely normal and healthy and could call you mad". I still had in mind "no choice" but then again, there are cripple people who don't ask for help or seek treatment because they are afraid how people look at them.
There are also people with lite mental disorder (mild anxiety disorder, mania-depression.. whatever) who won't have treatment because people would think they are defected.
Post Merge: January 15, 2010, 11:50:40 PM
In reply to Janet.

No, you are not male with woman body, that's just ridiculous considering the number of women who are born without ovaries, uterus - that doesn't define you.
Chromosomes then? no one calls XY androgen immune girls male.

What is it then? maybe you history but that's just because you let it decide for you. - Let it go and realize you are a female.

See the definitions from the Medical Dictionary:

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4257

Definition of Male

Male: The traditional definition of male was "an individual of the sex that produces sperm" (or some such). However, things are not so simple today. Male can be defined by physical appearance, by chromosome constitution (see Male chromosome complement), or by gender identification.

Do you fit physical appearance of male? No.
Do you fit chromosome constitution of male? Maybe, probably yes if you ignore the natural occurring females with XY (which would give us maybe).
Do you fit gender identification of male? No, else why would anyone let you have female hormones and surgery to have female organs.

Now let's look at the female part.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3408

Definition of Female

Female: The traditional definition of female was "an individual of the sex that bears young" or "that produces ova or eggs". However, things are not so simple today. Female can be defined by physical appearance, by chromosome constitution (see Female chromosome complement), or by gender identification. Female chromosome complement: The large majority of females have a 46, XX chromosome complement (46 chromosomes including two X chromosomes). A minority of females have other chromosome constitutions such as 45,X (45 chromosomes including only one X chromosome) and 47,XXX (47 chromosomes including three X chromosomes).

Do you fit physical appearance of female? Yes.
Do you fit chromosome constitution of female? Maybe, probably no unless you count on the natural occurring females with XY (which would give us maybe).
Do you fit gender identification of female? Yes, therefore you were allowed to begin hormonal treatment, genital reconstruction surgery and so on.

So from this test you get the score of 2 female and one maybe female out of 3 total.
You get 0 male and 1 maybe male with shares maybe female at the same time.

I think that by medical definition you are female, live with it

[Cindy]

Not quite sure why we debate definitions. Can humans change sex? Define sex. That alone is very difficult. If we base it on XY/XX chromosomes then many people fail. Lots of XYY, XXY and various combinations. Incidentally, Naturally blonde sent me a pm where in she was described medically as an XY female. I quite like that sort of definition. Nero, I would suggest you are an XX male.

Can we change sex, getting back to it, define sex, as in most things there is a Gaussian distribution in sexuality among male and female (defined on chromosomes). Typically the majority identify their sexual organs, practice and desires as corresponding to mainstream belief of that particular gender. This is where it falls down. If you are not in the 75th percentile for that distribution, the majority believe you are 'odd', and you are, because you fall out of what is considered statistically 'normal'. Because you are in that category doesn't mean that there is anything 'wrong' with you; you just don't fit the 'normal' profile. In some cases, like us (I think) our sexuality doesn't match our gender, and we desire to match sexuality with gender. In others it is different, I'm sure there are lots of gender/sex identifying males who wish to be, and are passive in heterosexual relationships. And there are many gender/sex matching females who do not wish to be in anyway the 'normal' passive female; but are aggressive and dominant. Sorry for the stereotypes but I think you get he drift. These people do not have GID.
Then there are people like us, I do not identify as male. I have had sexual relations as a male, and enjoyed them, but I would much rather have the female role in sex, in life, in emotion, in thought and in body. I would love to have a family, be a mum, look after my children and my husband. Have a nice house where we could all live and I can take care of them all.
Can I change my sex? I would argue, No. Sadly. Can I change my gender? No. Sadly. I would like them to match but?

Cindy, confused as ever


Cindy

[Silver]

Split from the 'Your thoughts on the term 'transsexual' thread.

No. I meant that the term 'transsexual' implies changing sex. So, if a person does not have bottom surgery to change the sex organs, they haven't really 'changed sex' in a strictly physical sense. That doesn't mean they're not a transsexual in the broad sense of the word. Using the term transsexual in this manner does not imply that transsexuals remain transsexual, if they ever fit the literal sense of the word.

Biologically, no. But society values the masculine role more than the sperm I think. So it's the best you can do, and it's not bad.

[Asfsd4214]

Have I changed sex?

Nope.

Until we perfect a gene therapy to allow XY and XX chromasome pairs to be interchanged, and tissue regeneration which will allow morphing of gametes into their new configuration (testes to ovaries or visa-versa) none of us ever has, and no one will change sex.

So have I changed gender?

Again nope!  The change has been purely perceptual, in that by modifying my bodies Karotype and secondary sexual characteristics I have encouraged people to percieve things which were always there in my character but which previously they were ignoring.

So what is this thing called SRS really?

Well it is purely and simply an extreme form of cosmetic surgery like a nose job or anything else which changes your appearance without changing the underlying reality.

So although I identify as a female and all my legal documentation including my Birth Cert says female or girl, the truth is I am medically a heavily modified male.

I'm sure there are some who will feel unhappy with this idea, heck I'm not exactly delighted about it myself and if there was anyway that I could have that chromasomal reversal, even if there was a 99% chance that it would kill me, I would take it in a second!

But the truth is the truth irrespective of whether you or I like it. So far achieving a true sex change remains a distant dream.

Why bother then?

The fact remains however that in allowing me to function and be percieved as a female in social situtaions, has improved my life. So even though it is, from a strictly medical point of view, an illusion it is an illusion which improves my life and is therefore worth having.

***

PS - That little speech is pretty much exactly what the Late Great Dr John Randall, my first gender psychiatrist, told me on my first visit to his GIC in 1977.

Back then I hated him for saying it. But decades on I realise that he wasn't a bastard, he was actually telling me the truth to try to save me from decades of futile striving to be something which none of us can ever medically be more than a facsimilie of (until we get that breakthough).

You seem really hung up on this chromosome thing.

What are chromosomes, really? They're utterly meaningless.

AIS, Swyer syndrome, XX male syndrome, are these people really male, male and female respectively? If we didn't understand chromosomes we wouldn't even comprehend the difference.

Is gender really such an arbitrary and hyper specific thing that these tiny, insignificant things, have the final say?

If so, what's the point of even having the designations male and female? They're worthless for any practical real life purpose if all they mean is XX vs XY.

If I had the 99% option, I wouldn't take it. The chromosome thing used to bug me a lot, but since learning about the many intersex disorders people are walking around with, it doesn't bother me anymore. Chromosomes are worthless for anything in real life. They're of interest to the scientific community. For us, XX and XY don't mean female and male, they just mean XX and XY, there's no worthwhile difference.

We have assigned the chromosomes, something we can't even see with our own eyes, the final authority in determining male and female with complete disregard to the real world difference between the sexes.

There are men with XX, there are women with XY, and both can easily have been born that way.

Worrying over two little letters with absolutely and utterly no real life effect is pointless.

As I said, this is something that used to bother me a lot. Now it bothers me that people are so ignorant or narrow minded to think that this arbitrary thing which people can be born with not having EITHER combination, is any real determination of gender, sex, or any worthwhile definition of male and female.

[rejennyrated]

You seem really hung up on this chromosome thing.

What are chromosomes, really? They're utterly meaningless.

AIS, Swyer syndrome, XX male syndrome, are these people really male, male and female respectively? If we didn't understand chromosomes we wouldn't even comprehend the difference.

Is gender really such an arbitrary and hyper specific thing that these tiny, insignificant things, have the final say?

If so, what's the point of even having the designations male and female? They're worthless for any practical real life purpose if all they mean is XX vs XY.

If I had the 99% option, I wouldn't take it. The chromosome thing used to bug me a lot, but since learning about the many intersex disorders people are walking around with, it doesn't bother me anymore. Chromosomes are worthless for anything in real life. They're of interest to the scientific community. For us, XX and XY don't mean female and male, they just mean XX and XY, there's no worthwhile difference.

We have assigned the chromosomes, something we can't even see with our own eyes, the final authority in determining male and female with complete disregard to the real world difference between the sexes.

There are men with XX, there are women with XY, and both can easily have been born that way.

Worrying over two little letters with absolutely and utterly no real life effect is pointless.

As I said, this is something that used to bother me a lot. Now it bothers me that people are so ignorant or narrow minded to think that this arbitrary thing which people can be born with not having EITHER combination, is any real determination of gender, sex, or any worthwhile definition of male and female.

Actually Ashley as someone who is formally diagnosed as PAIS grade 2 intersex I am far from hung up on chromasomes.

In that post I was speaking deliberately ONLY of the medical view, and not about all the other aspects of things.

I would have thought it should be reasonably clear, that as someone who has lived almost my entire life as female (with my parents help in the childhood years) despite my chromasomes, that my own view is that they are only a small part of what makes me me.

The only reason for my desire to change them is that if it could have been done, then I would have been able to be fertile. Which is something I really regret never having.

[Asfsd4214]

Actually Ashley as someone who is formally diagnosed as PAIS grade 2 intersex I am far from hung up on chromasomes.

In that post I was speaking deliberately ONLY of the medical view, and not about all the other aspects of things.

I would have thought it should be reasonably clear, that as someone who has lived almost my entire life as female (with my parents help in the childhood years) despite my chromasomes, that my own view is that they are only a small part of what makes me me.

The only reason for my desire to change them is that if it could have been done, then I would have been able to be fertile. Which is something I really regret never having.

I absolutely understand that, it just bothers me when people put so much stock in chromosomes as "the real" definition of male and female.

For all practical, tangible purposes, XY are nothing more than 2 letters.

Something to remember though, XX doesn't in itself imply fertility. I would have loved to have been able to have my own children one day, but that was never going to happen for me (I'm straight and I flat out refuse to ever be someone's "father" in any sense of the word), there's a lot of experiences I'm never going to have and would like to have had. But there are lots of infertile women out there, and a lot worse things to be.

[Purple Pimp]

I'm sure there are some who will feel unhappy with this idea, heck I'm not exactly delighted about it myself and if there was anyway that I could have that chromasomal reversal, even if there was a 99% chance that it would kill me, I would take it in a second!

Really?  I have a hard time understanding that bit.  To me, this is also the crux of Nero's question: if we alter our bodies to match our sense of gender, then yes, I think that we do change sex.  Sex is as sex does.  Jenny, you've led a woman's life for decades, so why would you risk your reality as a woman to potentially be a dead person with XX chromosomes?  Do those XX chromosomes make you female?  To my mind, as long as there are women around who are XY (or X0, or whatever), then being XY doesn't prevent one from laying a claim to the female sex.  Sex, I think, is determined by how we live our lives.  Nero lives the life of a man in all ways (I assume), and therefore is a man.  Maybe this is only reducing sex to socially-recognized sex, but in the end, isn't that how sex is ultimately determined, through social interaction?  Science, after all, doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Lia

[Myself]

People can be fertile even with mixed chromosomes and infertile with the "normal" chromosomes set up.

Chromosome replacement therapy will become reality soon (well 15-20 years), but it doesn't matter at all.

Two good friends of mine are most likely infertile, it doesn't make them any less a woman than anyone else in this world. Oh, they are XX too!
There are XY Women which are NOT androgen resistance but rather missing the Y deciding gene, as far as I remember - those women can be fertile. Oops!
There are XX Men with the Y deciding gene, as far as I remember, they are able to make healthy sperm. Biology gone wild!

Stop torturing yourself claiming you are not what you should be, that's in your mind, not reality anymore.

[rejennyrated]

ok - I suppose I just get fed up with one or two of my medical friends telling me that sort of stuff. One my best friends is a retired Gender Psychiatrist and I know a fair few doctors socially. So it's one of those inevitable after dinner debates that happens from time to time.

Plus, like I say, it would genuinely be nice to feel that that tiny irregularity, however small it may be, has finally been wiped.

But you're all correct, maybe I did over egg the percentages a little in the heat of verbal flow back there... Maybe 99% is a bit of a high mortality risk 

And perhaps with my familly I shouldn't even think like that at all, after all unbelievably one of my own cousins is an XX male! The odd's of two such anomilies in one family must be tiny. (But it seems we are quite a strange family.)