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How many genders are there?

Started by Hazumu, November 04, 2006, 11:49:19 AM

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How many genders are there

It's 'sex', 'gender' is a made-up word.
2 (2.5%)
Two, Just two, and you're either one or the other, period.
16 (19.8%)
Three
10 (12.3%)
How many do you want there to be?
50 (61.7%)
It's 'sex', 'gender' is a made-up word.
3 (3.7%)

Total Members Voted: 29

madison

Darnit. Nero you're just making it more complex. I had figured it all out, everything made so much sense, and then you remind us of the intersexed. So now I need to choose "4". Where will the insanity end?  :)

I've got it, maybe gender is like race and nationality, there a lot of humans, but many races and nationalities. Okay, the world makes sense to me again (and as long is does for a few minutes day I'm fine  :) ).
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Kendall

Intersexed is a physical state, not a gender. Intersexed can choose / or forced to be male , female, live androgynous, or nuetrois just like everyone else. They just start with a different biology. They just face different gender challenges from birth.
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Brianna

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Steph

Quote from: Brianna on November 06, 2006, 04:13:59 PM
This idea is such a cop out, in my opinion. So many transsexuals want to delude themselves into thinking passing happens seridipidously. They think they can act like men and be accepted as women. This idea seems like a dangerous delusional fantasy to me.

Certianly, there are degrees of gender. But the idea of magically creating more that three genders (man, female, androgynous) is just mind fattening candy for the fantasy multiplex.

Bri

If I may add a little spice to the pot Bri...  :)

How about this... I don't think that it's transsexuals who are deluding themselves as a true transsexual would not consider that there would be more than two genders, for it would be impractical, even ludicrous that a TS would transition to something other that MtF or FtM.  For example I do not consider that a person who is male and believed that they were androgynous would be considered transsexual, what are they transitioning to.  This is why I feel that TS doesn't belong under the Transgender Umbrella, but that is another topic that is way too divisive to discuss I'm afraid.

Spicy enough ;)

Steph
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Brianna

Quote from: Steph on November 07, 2006, 07:21:38 PM
If I may add a little spice to the pot Bri...  :)

How about this... I don't think that it's transsexuals who are deluding themselves as a true transsexual would not consider that there would be more than two genders, for it would be impractical, even ludicrous that a TS would transition to something other that MtF or FtM.  For example I do not consider that a person who is male and believed that they were androgynous would be considered transsexual, what are they transitioning to.  This is why I feel that TS doesn't belong under the Transgender Umbrella, but that is another topic that is way too divisive to discuss I'm afraid.

Spicy enough ;)

Steph

I strongly agree with everything in this post, steph. Especially that transgender and transsexual don't belong in the same classification. I, personally, do not liken my own journey with that of the transvestites, and I don't wish to be corelated with them by society.

I think you are correct that no one WILLINGFULLY classifies themself into the category you describe. But, if you will so indulge me, could I ask you to participate in a thought experiement with me?

Let us take a hypothetical transsexual, HyTran. They are a 50 year old who says they are a  M2F. For purposes of this thought experiment...

HyTran doesn't think voice is important to train and is always read.
HyTran keeps up very traditionally male intrests such as Star Trek, construction, and war movies
HyTran doesn't dress in a way that easily communicates gender
HyTran doesn't think finishing electro is important.

HyTran does this under the rationale "There are all kinds of women. Women that have low voices, like Star Trek, don't wear feamle clothes, and have facial hair." HyTran does this under the rationale "there are hundreds of genders."

Is this beleive that there are multiple genders healthy for HyTran? Is it recuscant? Is it a textbook delusional complex?

Would it be healthier for HyTran to understand that most of society operates in a bianary gender hegenomy, and that presenting themself as a plausable member of one sex of the other is healthier?

Bri, thoughtfully
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madison

I thoughtfully volunteer for the thought experiment:

If I understand, you believe HyTran, as a proclaimed transexual (post-op?), is doing herself, and potentially, transexuals everywhere a disservice by not conforming to prescribed notions of gender based on her actions.

Putting aside for one moment issues of gender identification at all, if I understand correctly the entire purpose in transitioning, is to bring in line a persons body to their perception of themselves as a man or a woman. I would suggest that HyTran is doing that. HyTran is matching the body to the belief that she is, was, and will always be a woman. Therefore, if HyTran has completed the transition to her satisfaction, who are we to come along and question her committment or notions of what it means to be a woman?

There are woman who like Star Trek, sound and talk like a man, dress in a careless ungroomed fashion, don't take care for their bodies in prescribed notions of beauty, who don't shave their legs, who are unattractive, who...

Now, I can't argue that HyTran might find more broad social acceptance if she took extra steps to ensure she "passed" to the best of her ability. But what exactly is HyTran recusant to? Where is the book of life that dicates how things should and shouldn't be? What standard of expectations are we measuring HyTran by? Yours? Mine? The fashion magazines? What the bigoted neighbor thinks? What Christians think?

If HyTran is happy, lives in an environment lacking in excessive hate-crimes, has friends, support groups, recreation, work, and laughs a few times a day, whose right is it to even question it? Maybe the bigot, religious, and uneducated feel obligated, but I hardly think it is the place of the apparently fragmented transgendered community to be handing out social dictums on how any individual should be living their life. A happy HyTran in this case meets and exceeds her personal relationship with society, and more importantly with self and personal relationships.

For all intents and purposes, HyTran is now a woman, her kind of woman, the kind of woman she wants to be. The transition is complete, and as Steph suggests, she is no longer transexual, she is a woman.

On the other hand if HyTran is unhappy, constantly depressed and frustrated by a lack of joy, lack of friendship, and the painful object of reprobation because HyTran does not present effectively to any community, eschews chiding or advice from friends and community, and is otherwise just not trying to be participate at all within society, then HyTran has problems that extend much farther than whether or not the concept of multiple genders is acceptable. Even if HyTran created a worldview hinging on the validity of a gender spectrum, if HyTran is unwilling to acknowledge her role in society, and make appropriate changes at appropriate times, then HyTran will experience nothing but pain. And yet, I don't think the idea of multiple genders could possibly be blamed for the the end result of HyTran. Her worldview and powers for decision making would have been well formed long before the concept of gender was even an understandable topic.

In the scenario where HyTran is unhappy, maybe it is textbook delusion; at the very least it obviously isn't healthy. Nonetheless concepts of gender, hegemonic or rarified, are doubtful at the root of the problem; an excuse of some kind for some other shortcoming or deficiency in HyTran's mental state maybe, but not a cause.




Regarding Brianna's comment...
Quote
...transgender and transsexual don't belong in the same classification. I, personally, do not liken my own journey with that of the transvestites, and I don't wish to be corelated with them by society.

Strangely, or perhaps rationally enough, as an androgyne (until the term changes again) I do not liken my journey to that of a transvestite either. However, based on my understanding of gender, utilizing dictionary definitions, androgynes, transexuals, and transvestites are addressing gender issues that transcend or cross traditional views of birth-sex and cultural gender expectations. Based on this rationale, I can even stand by Steph's assertions that a transitioned transexual is no longer transexual, but I'm not sure how that escapes the idea of having been born transgendered, or how being transexual, especially pre-op is not a transgendered issue (again using only dictionary definitions).

Honestly I am not trying to argue or open a painful dialogue. On the contrary, by way of alleviating such frustration, I would appreciate some further explanation and basis for some of the comments that are being made in this post by a segment of the population, if not of a transgendered community, at least the community here at Susan's. Comments that some here, myself included, could perceive as incendiary instead of enlightening; I do not doubt some motive of good intention behind the comments or suggest them to be intentionally dissentious.

While the destinations and paths of the journey are without question different, by my understandings of transgendered issues, which admittedly I have clarified most by way of participation here, the impetus for that journey begins in a similar place. That place is some moment, usually very early in life, when you sense something just isn't right, isn't as people keep indicating it should be; and a long journey begins of understanding what it is, what it means, and what your options are.

For the transexual that same journey has a destination of acceptance and expression through physical transition.
For the androgyne it has a destination of acceptance and expression through naturalization.
For the cross dresser it has a destination of acceptance and expression through respite.

But each of them had that, oh too similar, frightening and/or freeing moment of realization that started them on that journey. We all make different choices for different reasons, and yet I have yet to see any reason to doubt that these people have more in common than not. I don't understand the ultimate needs of the transexual. I don't understand the ultimate needs of the cross dresser. Neither make sense for my circumstances, for how I was raised, for how I learned of my situation and potential options, for the desperate hoops I've forced my brain to leap, to find an answer that did make sense to me at the time I was capable and willing to make such decisions. And in the end I don't need to understand, but I can sympathize, try to understand, but I can't regret what are conscious decisions we all face.

If the subhead on this site means anything, and we who walk these halls are indeed standing at a crossroads of gender balanced on the edge of a sharp knife, then gender is a word every one here should be extremely famililar with; not for how it makes us different, but for how it brings us together.
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RebeccaFog

   I agree with Madison's post. many people who are genetic born fully male or fully female have odd traits or behaviours or personalities that set them apart, but they are still human beings and maybe thier personalities don't allow them to adapt to preconceieved or accepted notions of how they groom or dress themselves.
   I don't think someone loses the transsexual category if they follow the baselines but don't fully meet the cultural expectations. It's a hard life to begin with. Why make it harder for someone?


Rebecca
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Genevieve

Wow Madison!

That was a fantastic post!

It was so well spoken and clear. Thank you.

I agree with Julie, Rebecca and Madison.

With regard to each of our journies, I do not believe any of us has a right to judge or classify any other. That almost seems hypocritical. Each journey is totally determined by the individual and that person's needs. As long as they do no harm and end in a place where they want to be, their journey has served it's purpose. Who are we to question another's journey?

In my opinion, the best we can and should do is support those in need, learn from our own mistakes, help others learn from mistakes made, grow and strive for our own happiness and fulfilment.

*hugs*

Genevieve
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madison

Thank you Genevieve and Rebecca.

And I agree completely with Genevieve's statement:

Quote
In my opinion, the best we can and should do is support those in need, learn from our own mistakes, help others learn from mistakes made, grow and strive for our own happiness and fulfilment.

But I truly wish to clarify that I am not seeking some uniformity of belief, and that we should agree on every little thing. I only seek to better understand how and why other viewpoints might differ from my own, and further assess whether or not those viewpoints might be more beneficial in my own life. In the meantime of course, I have developed my own viewpoints that I believe carry a certain amount of validity, and might be of value for others to consider.

And I would also like to add some a few more thoughts that arose from another post in Androgyne talk that might be of use here as well.

Quote
It was stated once, that androgynes are not transtioning, but I offer that my very existence is proof of a type of transition. I am attempting to transition to a recognizable representation of how I feel. It is not physical, but there is a definite mental transition happening to make space for an androgynous concept that has been entirely left out of my culture, but has existed elsewhere. It makes sense to me to as you say, "gender-splice." But only because my culture has left me no alternative.

...

Considering the idea of a third gender is something that has not been adequately explored. And I offer another thought experiment for illustration. The journey of a transexual is that from birth-sex to the opposite sex, in an effort to match the body with the spirit. Given that there is, beyond question, a third SEX, the intersexed aka the hermaphrodite, is it not possible or even necessary for some of us to take that journey from our birth-sex to intersexed?

(Note: I'm only just now considering this for the first time. And while you could think me being flippant or exaggerating to make a point, it really makes me wonder.)

So perhaps their really is a transition to be made for the androgyne. And androgyne being little more than a descriptor of that inbetween state until such time as the physical matches the spirit. Just something to consider.

And from that same post, a few thoughts that might better express my intentions here...

Quote
On one last note, I would like to make it known that I do not feel as though I have the answers, that it all makes sense, and that I have the way to salvation, far from it. And moreover, I do not feel as though any of you do either. That is the point of these dialogs, to live and grow, and experience truth for the beautiful fluid thing that it is. Humans use words and symbols to communicate and do more than simply survive. Human vagaries of what life is, what life means, and how we should do it will likely always be changing, and we will never truly know all. But what we can do in the meantime, is have a hell of a lot of fun pondering it, and trying to make this brief stint as comfortable and pleasant as possible.

These discussions are a chance for us to learn how and why people make different decisions from us, and whether those other decisions had outcomes that we might find more favorable in our own lives. Thank you all for sharing and growing with me.
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Julie Marie

Madison, you hit on a lot of excellent points, many of which point to one simple but seemingly elusive state, happiness.  If you find what makes you happy and it doesn't cause anyone physical harm or specific emotional harm, then we should all be happy another human being has found happiness.  And in doing so will no longer burden society.  We should rejoice rather than guilt them into being what makes us happy.

Just a side note: specific emotional harm is a term I used for intentionally doing personal damage to another.  Not to be confused with people who are blown away because someone they have known all their life now wants to life their life in the opposite gender.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Ricki

I will only add that being a non-transitioning m-to-female
9iok asdbh(sorry my puppy id that jumping onto my keyboard-how cute...*__*)
Does not mean i am accepting anything society has to dish out or assertain as their normality or my "role"  I chose non-transitioning because i realized that due to financial, social, family, and physical issues (FOR ME) my transition would not be anything near the completeness i would want or deserve and without knowing fear the worst and think it would not end in a good result? One i could not live with????  noe that also present s the day to day challenges of living with who i am and am not....
Now dealing with it however does not mean that pyhsiologically i am not in a female developement or trying to develope even though my physical self reamins a guy?  its as much as a hard path as developing as as much as a mystery and  in some ways has had it ups and downs and rewards as developed ts individuals....
Definately a work in progress I add only that to this post!
Ricki
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Shana A

QuoteWould it be healthier for HyTran to understand that most of society operates in a bianary gender hegenomy, and that presenting themself as a plausable member of one sex of the other is healthier?

Although most society accepts and enforces the binary gender system, not every person fits neatly into an either/or reality. Speaking from my own personal experience, after doing a year long RLT, I felt that although I had never fit into the box labeled M, I didn't exactly fit into the box labeled F either, even though I felt happier there. It just wasn't that simple. I'd probably have an easier life if I could just blend in and be one or another, but that truly doesn't work for me. Believe me, I've given considerable thought as to whether thinking that I'm a third (or other) gender could be a form of denial, but I don't think so. I can't speak for the hypothetical HyTran, but for me, there's way more than two genders.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Chaunte

I was raised that there are only two options - male or female.  After 48 years, this is my opinion.

Three genetic sexes - male (XY), female(XX), and hermaphroditic (XXY or XYY).

Three physiological sexes - male, female, and intersexed.

Three genders (self perceptions) - man, woman, androgenous.

Chaunte
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jilieanne

At the risk of jumping into a discussion that I haven't followed (I just joined), I see gender as a contiuum, not as discrete packages.  I also think we tend to slide along that contiuum pretty freely depending on mood, circumstance, and so on.  Just my 2 cents worth. 

Julieanne
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bananaslug

#34

Society does not exist to tell us who or how to be.  It is a product of who we are.  It is not an abstract entity divorced from the individual identities of its' members.  The true anti-social is he/she/ze who chooses to define and divide people either by what they deem to be conformist or recusant behavior.

Much the same argument could be applied to the notion of 'gender'.
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Refugee

Quote from: Brianna on November 07, 2006, 10:35:53 PM
Let us take a hypothetical transsexual, HyTran. They are a 50 year old who says they are a  M2F. For purposes of this thought experiment...

HyTran doesn't think voice is important to train and is always read.
HyTran keeps up very traditionally male intrests such as Star Trek, construction, and war movies
HyTran doesn't dress in a way that easily communicates gender
HyTran doesn't think finishing electro is important.

HyTran does this under the rationale "There are all kinds of women. Women that have low voices, like Star Trek, don't wear feamle clothes, and have facial hair." HyTran does this under the rationale "there are hundreds of genders."

Is this beleive that there are multiple genders healthy for HyTran? Is it recuscant? Is it a textbook delusional complex?


While I agree with you, I don't think HyTran's logic is necessarily flawed either in a much as women do all of those things, but not usually together all at the same time.  A beer drinking, cigar smoking woman doesn't usually attract attention, unless she's got a five o'clock shadow and is yelling at the football game on TV with her feet propped up on the coffee table.

There should be no sense of safety in a third gender.  Society functions in two genders.

Is HyTran fearful, just lazy or is she seeking to shock people with her presentation? 
Posted on: November 19, 2006, 08:42:09 AM
Quote from: madison on November 08, 2006, 01:30:08 AM

While the destinations and paths of the journey are without question different, by my understandings of transgendered issues, which admittedly I have clarified most by way of participation here, the impetus for that journey begins in a similar place. That place is some moment, usually very early in life, when you sense something just isn't right, isn't as people keep indicating it should be; and a long journey begins of understanding what it is, what it means, and what your options are.

For the transexual that same journey has a destination of acceptance and expression through physical transition.
For the androgyne it has a destination of acceptance and expression through naturalization.
For the cross dresser it has a destination of acceptance and expression through respite.


I believe that's where the gender split exists...for the TS there is only one gender, and prior to transition its not the one they're presenting as.  Androgynes either reject or accept both genders and exist as their mood suits them.  CDs exist as a presentation of gender, expressing in the moment what their emotions are.

For me there is only Madison.  I may have some male interests, but I lack a sense of myself as a male.  My interests do not conflict with my sense of myself, who I see in the mirror does.  I'm not expressing my feminine side, I am my feminine side.  There's no interest in living as Madison and "not Madison" since there is no "not Madison" for me to live for.

I only have two gender options, me or not me.  That other people are comfortable beyond the gender black and white is their choice and while I disagree with them, its not up to me to judge them.
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tinkerbell

Quote from: Refugee on November 19, 2006, 09:54:55 AM
Quote from: Brianna on November 07, 2006, 10:35:53 PM
Let us take a hypothetical transsexual, HyTran. They are a 50 year old who says they are a  M2F. For purposes of this thought experiment...

HyTran doesn't think voice is important to train and is always read.
HyTran keeps up very traditionally male intrests such as Star Trek, construction, and war movies
HyTran doesn't dress in a way that easily communicates gender
HyTran doesn't think finishing electro is important.

HyTran does this under the rationale "There are all kinds of women. Women that have low voices, like Star Trek, don't wear feamle clothes, and have facial hair." HyTran does this under the rationale "there are hundreds of genders."

Is this beleive that there are multiple genders healthy for HyTran? Is it recuscant? Is it a textbook delusional complex?


While I agree with you, I don't think HyTran's logic is necessarily flawed either in a much as women do all of those things, but not usually together all at the same time.  A beer drinking, cigar smoking woman doesn't usually attract attention, unless she's got a five o'clock shadow and is yelling at the football game on TV with her feet propped up on the coffee table.

There should be no sense of safety in a third gender.  Society functions in two genders.

Is HyTran fearful, just lazy or is she seeking to shock people with her presentation?

I concur with you on this refugee! :eusa_clap:  Personally I wouldn't feel safe living in a "third gender".  I had my shares of horrible experiences in those days when estrogen was just beginning to cause its effects on me, and people did not know if I was male of female...I can't imagine myself living life that way, but I respect and admire those who try to live their lives outside the binary gender system.


Quote from: bananaslugSociety does not exist to tell us who or how to be

True to a point, but realistically speaking, we form part of this society whether we like it or not and as far as I am concerned, the society that I form part of functions in only two genders.....but of course I sometimes have dreams where I see myself living in a perfect, genderless world, but as soon as I open my eyes in the morning, I realize that they were just that, dreams.

tinkerbell :icon_chick: 

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Owen

 I voted for two genders. However I believe it to be as much as you perceve your gender, more female than male or more male than female. Personally I perceive myself as more female than male always have and always will. Male parts with a female mind.



Owen

Love being female :angel:
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RebeccaFog

   You can sweep all the variations into only 2 genders, but there are always nonconformists and exceptions to every rule. The exceptions deserve thier own space if they desire it. Some people are severely eccentric or they don't consider the "rules" when they consider their self image.
    I know elderly women who have facial hair and they don't go out of thier way to remove it or to keep the hair from growing back. They're obviously women, but the facial hair doesn't make them men. In my opinion, it doesn't even make them ugly. They just don't consider that they should waste thier time grooming such an inconsequential thing as some facial hair. Who decided that women should shave thier legs anyway? I like the shaved look, but I have no problem with women who go natural.
    If I can't control my male physicality, I'm going to have to find a way to be entirely myself internally and find some kind of compromise for my external appearance. Even if I magically aquired the body and fashion that I want, I would still consider myself 3rd gender. I'll never have the life experiences and the biological effects that would truly make me a woman.
   I know I am female and that I AM NOT A MAN, but I'll never be a woman. If I look like a male, but my identity is female, there is enough incongruity there to declare myself something else. I don't really know what, but it's not man or woman.

   I believe in many genders. I believe in variation. I believe that I cannot live happily in a world that doesn't accept variation.

   I AM NOT A MAN! I AM NOT A MAN! I AM NOT A MAN! I cannot pass as a woman. What am I?


As usual, I hope I didn't disturb anyone. Written in lovely confusion by:

Rebecca Fog
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Melissa

Quote from: madison on November 08, 2006, 01:30:08 AM
Regarding Brianna's comment...
Quote
...transgender and transsexual don't belong in the same classification. I, personally, do not liken my own journey with that of the transvestites, and I don't wish to be corelated with them by society.

Strangely, or perhaps rationally enough, as an androgyne (until the term changes again) I do not liken my journey to that of a transvestite either. However, based on my understanding of gender, utilizing dictionary definitions, androgynes, transexuals, and transvestites are addressing gender issues that transcend or cross traditional views of birth-sex and cultural gender expectations. Based on this rationale, I can even stand by Steph's assertions that a transitioned transexual is no longer transexual, but I'm not sure how that escapes the idea of having been born transgendered, or how being transexual, especially pre-op is not a transgendered issue (again using only dictionary definitions).
Well, I personally have no issues with my gender, my issues are with the sex of my body not matching what I believe it should.  The word transgender literally means "across genders" and since a transsexual's gender is not changing, it technically does not apply.  However the word transsexual would mean "across sexes" and since we are physically changing the sex of our body from one to the other, it is a perfectly appropriate word.

Melissa
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