302.85 Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescents or Adults

[Shana A]

302.85
Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescents or Adults

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=193

    * Proposed  Revision

Gender Incongruence (in Adolescents or Adults) [1]

A. A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration, as manifested by 2* or more of the following indicators: [2, 3, 4]

1. a marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [13, 16]

2. a strong desire to be rid of one's primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one's experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [17]

[Chaunte]

Proposed revisions:
http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=193#

What caught my eye was the replacement of the term Gender Identity Disorder with Gender Incongruence.  The rationals are interesting &, I think, very supportive of us.

[Janet_Girl]

That makes more sense the GID.

[pamshaw]

Are we still classifed a someone who has a mental disorder?

Pam

[placeholdername]

DSM stands for "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" so if its in the DSM then yes.

But maybe they'll get around to changing the name of the book as well.


---


If you click the "Rationale" tab, there's a whole bit explaining all the changes which was very enlightening, and fits pretty well with my experience.  I forget, is Zucker one of the 'doctors' that people generally have so many problems with?  I can't remember which ones we're supposed to dislike, but I didn't see anything in the "Rationale" explanations that was alarming.

[Alyssa M.]

Are we still classifed a someone who has a mental disorder?

Pam

Do you have a problem with people with mental disorders? Many of my best friends have mental disorders. I have a friend who struggles with severe OCD (300.3). I have known many people with depression (296.3x). I knew a guy who was schizophrenic (295.x). I am mildly obsessive-compulsive, and when I was young I exhibited behavior typical to trichtotillomania (compulsive hair-pulling; 312.39). Oh, yeah: I'm also something of an insomniac (undiagnosed; 307.42) I had a great aunt who suffered from Alzheimers (290.3). I've known a few alcoholics (303.90) and a few anorexics (307.1), and a bunch of people with ADHD (314.x). Then there's Mathematics Disorder (315.1). And on and on.

Many mental disorders have clear biological bases; for others the biological basis is not very clear. Some are severe, and some are mild. That gender-related issues are classified in the DSM ought not to be a stigma. In fact, no disorder in the DSM should be a stigma any more than having the flu or an ear infection or a broken bone is.

--

Ketsy,

Yeah, Zucker's a proponent of reparative therapy -- i.e., forbiding male-bodied children from playing with dolls or being confronted with the awful specter of the color pink. I'm suprised with the outcome.

[Julie Marie]

I forget, is Zucker one of the 'doctors' that people generally have so many problems with?

From Wikipedia:

Since the mid-1970s Zucker has treated about 500 preadolescent gender-variant children to "help these kids be more content in their biological gender" until they are older and can determine their sexual identity.  For children assigned as males at birth, Zucker orders parents to take away their child's "feminine" toys and instruct the child not to play with or draw pictures of girls.

Zucker has been critical of parents who allow children to express gender nonconformity. He says these parents have been swayed by an activist transsexual agenda, and allowing this behavior could be considered "some type of emotional neglect" toward what might simply be a troubled child.

Do a web search and decide for yourself if this member of the DSM Task Force is someone we can support.

[Muffin]

There are so many threads on this now I've lost track, meh

[placeholdername]

From Wikipedia:

Since the mid-1970s Zucker has treated about 500 preadolescent gender-variant children to "help these kids be more content in their biological gender" until they are older and can determine their sexual identity.  For children assigned as males at birth, Zucker orders parents to take away their child's "feminine" toys and instruct the child not to play with or draw pictures of girls.

Zucker has been critical of parents who allow children to express gender nonconformity. He says these parents have been swayed by an activist transsexual agenda, and allowing this behavior could be considered "some type of emotional neglect" toward what might simply be a troubled child.

Do a web search and decide for yourself if this member of the DSM Task Force is someone we can support.

See, that's what I thought, but when I saw the Rationale parts that quoted research from him, none of those parts seemed contrary to what we here generally consider positive treatment.  So I was confused .

[Dawn D.]

I thought it interesting that you could create an account on their site and offer comments about their proposed changes. So, I created an account, reviewed the changes under 302.85 and offered my thoughts as follows:

At first glance I say Hooray! But, then I take a second look at your phraseology. It appears that the draft language uses the term "desire" as a verb. A synonym for desire is the word choose. In phrasing the proposed revision in such a way, this leads one to assume that desiring to become the other gender is as matter of choice.

What I feel needs to be firmly understood here is that, as a transexual woman myself, I was never afforded a choice in this matter through myself or any other person. Rather, it is and has always been a firm belief or strong conviction that I am the gender I say that I am. Implying a "desire to be the other gender", only allows for the continued castigation and stigmatization in social constructs.

I implore the committee to change the term in each of the first five indicators from "strong desire" to "strong conviction" as you have phrased in indicator no. 6.   


I am awaiting their response..........................I'm sure I'll get one..................won't I? 


Dawn

[tekla]

I would not be surprised if they responded.  After all, they are open to listening to outside opinions.  I'd be shocked if they cared about what you said, because you're not one of them.

[Dawn D.]

Ahhhh, take the wind out of my sails, Tekla! Go ahead, take it!


Dawn

[tekla]

They are just applying the Hawthorne effect that resulted from the Hawthorne experiments.  They know that, but outside of B-School management classes and psychology stuff, almost no one is ever told about them.

[Dawn D.]

So, you mean they have a string tied to my cheese? Damn, that's so frustrating!
That's it, I just gonna sit here and not move!


Dawn

[Suzy]

Dawn, please let us know if they respond.  Should be interesting.

Kristi

[Syne]

I find it interesting that the proposed changes remove the IS factor from diagnosis. Under IV if you are IS then you could not be CLINICALLY diagnosed with GID and now you can be IS and GI. Ummm, Alex can I but a `T`? 

[Alyssa M.]

Seriously Dawn? That's your problem? Why? That's pretty weak sauce. How about this: When I have the flu, I desire to be able to hold down a meal, walk from my bed to the bathroom without nearly or actually fainting, and generally feel okay. Right now I have a mild fracture in my right thumb, and I desire to be able to play the piano without excruciating pain and to sign my name on credit card slips. and yes, you better believe it, I desire to have the physical characteristics of, and to be accepted as, a woman.

If that implies any sort of "choosing," it's "choosing" to live a full and healthy life rather than an empty and painful existence. But of course, "choose" would be a silly word to use in those cases, just as it would be a silly word to use in the DSM. Synonyms don't generally have identical meanings, only similar ones.

[umop ap!sdn]

Do you have a problem with people with mental disorders? Many of my best friends have mental disorders.

I don't think Pam was saying that; I thought she was commenting on how our condition is not a malfunction of the mind and shouldn't be in the DSM. Especially since successful treatment is physiological and not psychiatric or behavioral in nature.

~ nerdychick
296.3, 296.8, 314.00, and possibly undiagnosed 300.6

[LordKAT]

Main Entry: 1de·sire
Pronunciation: \di-ˈzī(-ə)r, dē-\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): de·sired; de·sir·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French desirer, from Latin desiderare, from de- + sider-, sidus heavenly body
Date: 13th century

transitive verb 1 : to long or hope for : exhibit or feel desire for <desire success>
2 a : to express a wish for : request <they desire an immediate answer> b archaic : to express a wish to : ask
3 obsolete : invite
4 archaic : to feel the loss of intransitive verb


From Merriam-Webster Dictionary

[Dawn D.]

Seriously Dawn? That's your problem? Why? That's pretty weak sauce. How about this: When I have the flu, I desire to be able to hold down a meal, walk from my bed to the bathroom without nearly or actually fainting, and generally feel okay. Right now I have a mild fracture in my right thumb, and I desire to be able to play the piano without excruciating pain and to sign my name on credit card slips. and yes, you better believe it, I desire to have the physical characteristics of, and to be accepted as, a woman.

If that implies any sort of "choosing," it's "choosing" to live a full and healthy life rather than an empty and painful existence. But of course, "choose" would be a silly word to use in those cases, just as it would be a silly word to use in the DSM. Synonyms don't generally have identical meanings, only similar ones.

Alyssa,

Sorry to hear about your thumb! I do hope that you can return to the piano soon.

Yes, seriously Alyssa! You know, if your opinion is that you made a choice to be who you are and you have a choice to persistantly display as female hoping for acceptrance from others, well, so be it. It's your right to make your choice. Be happy with it. And, good luck to you in your endeavors.

However, I'll stick to my "problem" with the word desire and it's synonym, choose; implying that one would make a choice to be gender incongruent. I don't see how one could desire or choose to be incongruent. Pray tell! And yes, synoyms do have the same or nearly identical meanings. Look it up!

Desires and choices can be too easily seen as ludicrous. I can desire to be the President of the U.S.A., but actually becoming such is a pipe dream. Not only to me, but, I just about bet nearly everyone else that knows me too, lol! You can choose or desire to not pay your taxes. Let's see you convince the judge with your desire to not do so! However, there have been several cases won because the non tax paying citizen had a strong enough conviction (no pun intended) and belief that they were not obligated to pay said taxes and won! But, I digress.

If we allow the verbage desire, choose, choice or whatever to prevail, those detractors (you know the right-wing-nuts of vertually every aspect of western culture) that are there just waiting for the final draft to prove them right, will continue to have amunition to throw back at us validating their contention that somehow we "chose this lifestyle"; you made a "choice' to be who you are! Does it bother me that people have these misconceptions. You bet your ever lovin' ass it does. I know these nut jobs. And, they are dangerous! Just visit the list of those on the National Day of Rememberence site to witness their effectiveness.

Look, the issues I have with the released revision draft are more than just what I expressed earlier. There's alot more. The way I see it, these people are only providing us window dressing with the term Gender Incongruence vs. Gender Identity Disorder. I think their real goal is to provide just enough to satisfy a few, put just enough in to piss off some others, and end up factionalizing the whole freaking community. Appearantly it's already working! How do you fight and win a war? You divide and conquer!

Presently, they're winning.



Dawn