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what should I expect?

Started by Artificial Man, February 14, 2010, 02:47:36 PM

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Artificial Man

So, I'm starting my process to become a non-gendered person. I do hope that everything goes well.

But, once I start telling others about it (yeah, only to those who I think should know about it, or who I care for, and so on...), what kind of reaction should I expect? What about if some transphobic would find out? Am I correct to assume that I would get treated more fairly because I am not a transsexual?

These things have circled around my head for a while now, well, because I am fairly sure that at some point someone will find out some way or another (either by me telling them personally, or then from some other source) and I really want to know what to prepare for.
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rejennyrated

Ok forgive me for being honest. I doubt that describing yourself as a "non transsexual" will do you any favours at all.

Most people these days can just about get their heads round the idea of someone wanting to change gender/sex but even a lot of those of us who have been through the process struggle a little with the concept of being as you put it "non gendered".

If anything I think you may find that it is much much more difficult than being conventionally trans. For a start you will be in a very much smaller minority, and indeed whilst most people can imagine life in the opposite gender most of us, me included, have very little concept what a life without gender would mean. So at one stroke you could make yourself seem very alien. If it is fair treatment you are seeking I would seriously stick with being trans, or at least allow people to think that that is what you are...

But ultimately I do uderstand that you have to be true to yourself so if non gendered is what you want to be seen as then I will wish you good luck.
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Flan

being a little queer myself I recommend instead of using a label to define yourself, describe what the label means.

something like "it (being genderless) is just a way of being myself, without having to subscribe to images of masculinity and femininity that, if I tried to apply to myself, would be a lie either way."

good luck
Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur. Happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr, purr, purr.
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Kay

I'm with Jenny on this one.
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People generally feel more comfortable around things that they can define, and by defining them in even a general way...they then know what to expect from them.  This in turn tells them how to treat them, how to react, and what sorts of reactions to expect...just by looking at a person.  Even if they've never met them before.
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As a trans individual, I'm far more sensitive to the subtleties of the continuum of gender than most of the general populace.  Unfortunately, even I don't know what you mean when you say "non-gendered."  What does that mean to you?  What should that mean to other people that you meet?  Is it the same as androgynous? 
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Whatever you might do to become "non-gendered,"  the vast majority of people will still see you as "man" or "woman"...even if that's feminine man, masculine woman, or androgynous man/woman.  It's how they define the world around them.  A or B.  Bathrooms.  Clothing.  Social Groups.  Most people don't generally have a category for "non" or "third" gender.  It's something they don't understand.  And when people don't understand something...they often either try to shove you into a category that they do understand...or call you by rather impolite descriptors if they can't find a way to do so.
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How you should expect to be treated will depend on what you mean by "non-gendered."  Men's or Women's clothes?  Taking hormones?  Surgery?  How will you present?  As a man, woman, or somewhere in-between? (which can be anything from heavily mixing distinct sexual markers to confining yourself to only things that both genders display.)  Generally, people are most accepting when you clearly define yourself as Man or Woman. If you mix what most consider to be contrasting sexual markers (ie. beard with a dress, etc.), don't expect to be treated with a great deal of understanding. 
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How you will be treated by others has less to do with  how you define yourself, than with how others define you based upon how you look...or about what they know about what they can't see.  (ie. body modifications) If you're planning on mixing distinct sexual markers, I think your assumption regarding fairer treatment is incorrect. 
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I wish you luck in your journey though, wherever that may take you.
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Artificial Man

Those are good points. I guess it would be pretty complicated to explain being me to someone who doesn't know about it. And yeah, it does feel alienating at times: I don't know anyone else like me. But luckily the local trans-organization has one support group for genderqueers, so hopefully I'll find like-minded people from there.

And yea, I dress in mens' clothes: I adore ties and suits and all the fancy mens' clothes. So, everyone automatically assumes I am a male. Plus I am a very bad shopper of clothes, so that doesn't help either. But aside from clothes, I've never felt like a man. I gringe at the thought of being male and I don't think I have any mannerisms that would set me apart as "a man". It's hard to explain really; I could give examples about how I used to play with girls' toys as a child, or how I used to read girls' books (Nancy Drew) until my classmates found out and ridiculed me for that. Or I could tell you how if I have the chance to choose, I prefer sitting on the toilet just because peeing while standing is so "maleish". But really it's just that I don't feel like a male inside my head. Yet I don't feel like a female either: I have on interest in making myself appear more female-like either.

The good part about all this is that if I don't tell anyone about it, I'm treated just like a regular man, so I will not have any problems. But that is also the bad thing: knowing that people automatically think of me as being male makes me feel uncomfortable, when I know deep inside that I am not a male.
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JennaLee

Artificial man

I can identify with your feelings somewhat.  When I told my wife I used 'gender dysphoria'. 

My thinking was that there is no word or even paragraph which clearly defines me.  Gender dysphoria covers a lot of ground and invites discussion.

I was very nervous and had a lot of anxiety when I decided to tell her.  I wasn't confident our relationship was strong enough.  In the end, it has become even better.  After we spoke for awhile a twinkle came to her eye and she asked if this meant I wanted to do more 'girl' things.  It seems there was a Christmas display at a local conservatory and she had no one to go with.  Our relationship has branched out and I feel even closer than before.

It was such a relief to share these feelings I've had my entire life with someone.  To have her accept and even offer advice brings a tear to my eye even now.

In the end I don't think the word you use is too important.  It takes lots of them to assemble a picture, some say more than a thousand!

best wishes
trust is a useful tool for dishonorable people
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tekla

Well humans love the number two.  Things are black and white, right and wrong, liberal and conservative, light or dark, male or female.  It's easy, you call something one thing or the other, or, if its not one, it must be the other by default.

Nature, the world, and the universe seems to be a bit more complex however.  In reality things exist in ranges, from here to there, tertiary and primary and shades in between. At the very least things must be at least a box with an x and y axis, and not just a straight line, a to b.  Political views don't fall an easy 'right' and 'left' line but also exist in a range of the almost never talked about y axis of political thought, the one between authoritarian and libertarian. In any deeper, and truer notion, it's much more of a sphere with co-ordinates plotted in three dimensions.

Take sex.  Gay or Straight?  Is that the only choices?  Of course not.  Everyone knows that in fact most sex is what?  Yup, its not with either, its with the shower head, pillow, hand, blanket - whatever.  It's not gay/straight, because there is no one else there to gender it.  Now, if I assume that in fact most sex, for most people, is masturbatory, then the whole gay/straight deal doesn't apply to the majority cases of this behavior/action - most sex is not gay or straight.  Yet we persist, like its the only thing in all of it that matters, or that we can get our head around.  Again, sexuality and sexual choice exist on a hella lot of axis that are not about the gender of the partner.  That's one thing, but its not the only thing.  The reality is much, much deeper, and more complex than that.

So you, and many other people in here, are not in any strict sense crossing over the border and living on the other side, but its far more like playing on the periphery, funnin' on the frontier and pushing/stretching stuff that had been pretty rigid up to this point.  Out past the perimeter there are no simple definitions anymore.  It's no longer a strict one or the other.

And I think that most of these words like 'transexual' are so messed up that it's almost impossible to arrive at a simple, all inclusive definition that everyone here agrees with even here, and outside the community the term is used in so many ways that's its become less than helpful.  Though I don't think that self-defining yourself to other people as a 'non' anything is of much use either.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Kay

Quote from: Artificial Man on February 15, 2010, 04:53:34 AM
The good part about all this is that if I don't tell anyone about it, I'm treated just like a regular man, so I will not have any problems. But that is also the bad thing: knowing that people automatically think of me as being male makes me feel uncomfortable, when I know deep inside that I am not a male.
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Well...then my follow-up question for you to ask yourself is this: What do you need in order to be happy/content/at-peace with yourself?
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Is the issue here about how you feel about yourself? 
You didn't mention any body dysphoria.  You described it as more feeling personal displeasure at being labelled a man in social situations.
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If this is the case, what in the realm of identification do you need in order to feel happy?  Most strangers will immediately identify you as either man or woman....so in your case because of body and dress...it would be "man."   How do you feel about that?  Is that something you can live with?    If not, what would you need to do about it in order to be happy?  (Since you don't feel the need/desire to change your physical looks, this is probably something you're just going to have to accept from society at large.  Though...being a "man" can mean something different to you than it does to others.  You may be able to bend the definition a bit to suit yourself.  feminine man?  transgender-man?  Or does "man" bother you so much that you want nothing to do with it?)
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If all of your close friends know that you are 'differently gendered'...and treat you that way...would that be enough to give you enough inner peace on the subject?   (despite what outsiders/society-at-large may think)
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I suppose you could call yourself "bi-gendered...the best of both worlds."
(That's often how I thought of myself when I was younger.) 
It may be a little easier for your friends to wrap their heads around.  As the very definition is fairly free...with the the only firm characteristic being a sense of dual gender (which appears to fit you).  I don't think the term would have the same lightning-rod effect that "trans-anything" sometimes has.  (sometimes it's not so much what you are...it's how you package/present/label what you are.  Advertising...it's not just for candy bars anymore.  ;)  ) And it's non-descript enough so that it would probably invite more questions than judgements at first.  ("what do you mean?")  Which...if you're neither A...nor B...but C....could proove very useful.  From there, how you handle the explanation would be up to you.
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BunnyBee

People have a hard time with TS's because they add a twinge of gray to a nice comfortable black and white issue.  The more seamlessly a TS conforms to the binary system, the easier time they will have with society.

So, I think your premise is wrong.  I think it is probably going to be harder if you intend to challenge the whole institution of gender like that.

I think it's great that people do it.  I love to see black and white thinkers squirm, but you should definitely realize that making them squirm can be a dangerous proposition sometimes.  Be careful.

Mmm, I want to also say that line of thinking applies to the general public, but may not be true for your friends and family- if that is all you plan to tell.  Being able to hang onto some part of the "old you" can make it easier for those that already love you.
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Artificial Man

Thank you all for your replies. It has forced me to think about it when I read them. Usually I try not to think about it too much - you know, the reasons, or what it is that makes me "me".

Quote from: Kay on February 15, 2010, 08:43:33 PM
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Well...then my follow-up question for you to ask yourself is this: What do you need in order to be happy/content/at-peace with yourself?
.

Is the issue here about how you feel about yourself? 
You didn't mention any body dysphoria.  You described it as more feeling personal displeasure at being labelled a man in social situations.
.
If this is the case, what in the realm of identification do you need in order to feel happy?  Most strangers will immediately identify you as either man or woman....so in your case because of body and dress...it would be "man."   How do you feel about that?  Is that something you can live with?    If not, what would you need to do about it in order to be happy?  (Since you don't feel the need/desire to change your physical looks, this is probably something you're just going to have to accept from society at large.  Though...being a "man" can mean something different to you than it does to others.  You may be able to bend the definition a bit to suit yourself.  feminine man?  transgender-man?  Or does "man" bother you so much that you want nothing to do with it?)
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If all of your close friends know that you are 'differently gendered'...and treat you that way...would that be enough to give you enough inner peace on the subject?   (despite what outsiders/society-at-large may think)
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I suppose you could call yourself "bi-gendered...the best of both worlds."
(That's often how I thought of myself when I was younger.) 
It may be a little easier for your friends to wrap their heads around.  As the very definition is fairly free...with the the only firm characteristic being a sense of dual gender (which appears to fit you).  I don't think the term would have the same lightning-rod effect that "trans-anything" sometimes has.  (sometimes it's not so much what you are...it's how you package/present/label what you are.  Advertising...it's not just for candy bars anymore.  ;)  ) And it's non-descript enough so that it would probably invite more questions than judgements at first.  ("what do you mean?")  Which...if you're neither A...nor B...but C....could proove very useful.  From there, how you handle the explanation would be up to you.

Kay,
I actually would like it very much to have castration - however at the moment I am absolutely terrified of the thought of surgeries, but I am working on that. I guess the thing that I would need most, the thing that would make me the most happy, would be if I could live the kind of life that I imagine I would want to live. That means that I could live my life with knowing that the burden of "malehood" would be completely lifted off me. And that is why I believe castration would do wonders to me.

Of course that would mean that I would most probably end up living alone for my whole life, because there aren't that many people out there who want to have a relationship with a "eunuch" (although I wouldn't prefer to use that term when speaking about myself). But yeah, I could live with that. And I could live with ever other person in this world automatically assuming that I am male and treating me accordingly, for as long as I could live my own private life the way I want to live it.

So, now that I wrote this, I guess I shouldn't worry too much of what others think of me. But in the end, of course I worry if there is even a slight possibility for someone to hurt me in any way based on my gender identity.
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Alyssa M.

Just to be provocative, you might have something going by letting people think you're an "effeminate man" or something like that. In other words, if you live your life, wear the occasional skirt, use "guyliner," people might think you're weird, but, hey, when it comes right down to it, you're just a guy. Well, to them, at least.

Or you could go the Kate Bornstein route, or something like the gender conjugate of Daniela Sea (Max from The L Word, who has lived as a man at times and a woman at other times -- I mean Sea, not Max). That might really mess with people's heads.

I'm just throwing out a different perspective. I actually tend to agree with the people that said being genderqueer might get you in more trouble than just "picking sides," as it were. But I don't really have much confidence in that statement.

Anyway, yeah, good luck. And pay attention to what Tekla wrote. That was one of the best posts around here in a while (at least, if "best" means "someone else expressing core ideas from Alyssa's worldview unprompted" ;) :P)
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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