Susan's Place Logo

News:

Based on internal web log processing I show 3,417,511 Users made 5,324,115 Visits Accounting for 199,729,420 pageviews and 8.954.49 TB of data transfer for 2017, all on a little over $2,000 per month.

Help support this website by Donating or Subscribing! (Updated)

Main Menu

Powerful, Provocative and Controversial Subject

Started by Stephanie, February 25, 2010, 06:05:30 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Asfsd4214

Quote from: Arch on February 26, 2010, 04:42:00 AM
I see a lot of fuss about synthetic versus natural substances, but most of it appears to be dogmatic hoopla without real scientific basis.

Well it just stands to logical reason that estrogens the same as the body uses would have a lower risk of side effects than other estrogenic substances.
  •  

placeholdername

Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 26, 2010, 05:09:20 AM
Well it just stands to logical reason that estrogens the same as the body uses would have a lower risk of side effects than other estrogenic substances.

Actually no, that's not really a logically backed statement.  The body is a hideously complex mechanism, and we would be fools to make any assumption about what would have lower side effects without doing scientific studies.  After all, it's logically reasonable that when you burn wood, smoke comes out of it, so obviously the smoke must be in the wood before you set it on fire, right?  And we all know how true that is.
  •  

Asfsd4214

Quote from: Ketsy on February 26, 2010, 06:16:57 AM
Actually no, that's not really a logically backed statement.  The body is a hideously complex mechanism, and we would be fools to make any assumption about what would have lower side effects without doing scientific studies.  After all, it's logically reasonable that when you burn wood, smoke comes out of it, so obviously the smoke must be in the wood before you set it on fire, right?  And we all know how true that is.

No offense but I don't see anything there that really refutes what I said.

If you use the same chemical as the one you want to use, instead of a different chemical with a similar structure and properties, it stands to reason that the identical one will have the more desired effects if there's a difference. Where exactly is the flaw in that line of reasoning?
  •  

Arch

Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 26, 2010, 07:35:19 AM
No offense but I don't see anything there that really refutes what I said.

Maybe, but there is still a problem with your statement in that it was not based on logic. So the original problem remains.

Isn't it possible that the esters in my T could have some unforeseen positive long-term side effects? Alcohol consumption, for example, has benefits and drawbacks. So does chocolate.

At this point, the jury is out with regard to my T. Many studies remain to be done. I look forward to the day when we have more data.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
  •  

placeholdername

Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 26, 2010, 07:35:19 AM
No offense but I don't see anything there that really refutes what I said.

If you use the same chemical as the one you want to use, instead of a different chemical with a similar structure and properties, it stands to reason that the identical one will have the more desired effects if there's a difference. Where exactly is the flaw in that line of reasoning?

The flaw is this part: "it stands to reason" -- the fact is that most of us are born XY (or XX for FTM), and thus our bodies fundamentally do not process hormones in the same way as those born with the opposite chromosomes.  So we can say, estrogen does such-and-such for XX, but we can't say *based on that alone*, that some estrogen-like chemical won't do such-and-such for XY worse than actual estrogen.  It could be true, it could even likely be true, but it still needs scientific research to back it up -- "stands to reason" just isn't good enough when dealing with something as ridiculously complex as the human body.
  •  

Sarah B

No I would not (assuming what you are telling me is absolutely true), because I value my mind above all else, because without it, I would not be me, I would be a shell or an empty vessel.  However having said that.  I would continue taking my hormones for the benefits that they give me and accepting the risks that are inherent in taking them.

As rejennyrated mentioned us old girls having been taking hormones for a long time.  I used to have injections in the backside (I think it was called Depo-Provera) once a fortnight before my surgery and then once a month after.  In addition I always took Premarin.

I no longer have Depo Provera (I was told it was no longer prescribed and I did not follow up on it) and I no longer take Premarin instead I take Progynova because as my doctor said, she is able to measure the required hormone levels properly with Progynova instead of Premarin.  So I have been taking hormones for 21 years and I have not noticed any adverse side effects and the type of hormones we receive improves with time.

In the future as you suggest 10 to 30 years medicine will have advanced beyond what we know it today and hopefully dementia and other equally devastating diseases (conditions) will be treatable.

Anyway take the hormones or not take them, it does not really matter to me because in either case as I have said before and I will say it again in the future, "I am a female"

Kind regards
Serra Bee
Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story
Feb 1989 Living my life as Sarah.
Feb 1989 Legally changed my name.
Mar 1989 Started hormones.
May 1990 Three surgery letters.
Feb 1991 Surgery.
  •  

K8

I would worry if it was specifically dementia.  My wife got it while I was her sole care-giver and it wasn't nice.  At the same time, I am 66 years old.  I hope to live at least 20 more years, but who knows?

I have a good male friend aged 82.  When I was wondering whether to try to transition he asked me how many years I had left – 10? 20? 30?  He said even 10 years of happiness would be worth it.  And he was right.

Even if I die tomorrow I will have known more joy and happiness in these past months than I thought I would ever experience.

- Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
  •  

Asfsd4214

Quote from: Ketsy on February 26, 2010, 03:17:19 PM
The flaw is this part: "it stands to reason" -- the fact is that most of us are born XY (or XX for FTM), and thus our bodies fundamentally do not process hormones in the same way as those born with the opposite chromosomes.

I'm going to stop you right there. Based on what?

There are already women who aren't trans who have a functional Y chromosome, but are in all external and most internal appearances female because of the effects of estrogens on their body.

Is there ANY reason to believe that XY don't process estrogens the same way as XX's or vice versa? And I admit I don't know, but I have never seen ANY proof that it makes any significant difference and there's plenty of reason to believe it doesn't.

And if I'm wrong, by ALL means correct me. But I have never seen ANY evidence that having XY makes your body "fundamentally" process estrogen or testosterone differently, and there's plenty of evidence that it doesn't. CAIS alone (and it's not the only intersex condition that results in an XY chromosome but birth with a female phenotype) shows pretty well it doesn't make a huge amount of difference.

I just think that based on what we DO know, which admittedly is far from everything, fear of long term serious health consequences, at the very least neurologically, from HRT is unfounded at best and paranoid at worst.

  •  

Christine Eryn

Thinking about it, living as long as I have unhappy, I should have started HRT 15-20 years before I actually did. It's driven me pretty batty already, so...  :P
"There was a sculptor, and he found this stone, a special stone. He dragged it home and he worked on it for months, until he finally finished. When he was ready he showed it to his friends and they said he had created a great statue. And the sculptor said he hadn't created anything, the statue was always there, he just cleared away the small peices." Rambo III
  •  

SusanKG

Yes. Actually, I almost hope it becomes so. Really not, but my theory is that, since I am 63, and I have not had a girl's childhood, and girl/young women's adolescence, and an adult women's life and experiences, I'll at least be able to re-live those I didn't in my senility. Pull up a rocker, we can remember the hell of time we never had!  ;D >:( :o ??? ::) >:-) >:-)

SusanKG
  •  

Inanna

Quote from: Stephanie on February 25, 2010, 06:56:22 PM
I have been reading Lierre Keith's amazing book The Vegetarian Myth, Keith devotes a chapter to soy and the phytoestrogens contain in soya and other plants.   Soya affects the human body in many ways but it has a particularly harmful effect on the brain.   This got me thinking about the effect of synthetic oestrogen/testosterone on our brains.
   There are studies that show a strong correlation between hrt and dementia in later life.   Of course these studies used genetic females as their participants, but it is probably safe to assume that the findings of these studies are relevant to transsexuals.
   There are no long term studies into the effects of oestrogen and testosterone in transsexuals.   We have absolutely no idea what harm we could be doing ourselves neurologically in the coming years.  We are at once both researcher and participant in an unorthodox and unofficial long-term study where it will lead us nobody knows.   You would be amazed at just how little is actually known and understood about the human brain.   It stands to reason that long-term hrt use must rewire the brain, just as much as it remodels the body.  However, many of us seem to assume that this 'rewiring' will be in a positive direction.  Isn't this belief based far more on wishful thinking, that scientific evidence? 
   Personally I would love to have a more feminine figure, softer smoother skin, and breasts.   I am just not sure I want to go where medical science fears to tread because the final results could be devastating.   Do not think that your doctor will step in an intervene if anything appears to be wrong, by the time negative symptoms show it might well be too late to do anything.
  To end on a more positive note I really do hope that taking hrt long-term is safe, and it was not my intention to scare you.  I just think that I will wait a few years before deciding about going on hrt long-term.



Post Merge: February 25, 2010, 12:20:34 PM

Perhaps I have just been reading too much and managed to scare myself.  I am 22 so even the smallest chance that I might be demented in 20 years terrifies me.
Science proves one thing one week and another week proves the exact opposite.

The same age as you, I've been on HRT for 15 months; from the outset I also harbored some concerns on how it may affect my cognition short- and long-term.  This was in part because of a study demonstrating how quickly hormones can alter the brain in transsexuals, such as a pretty significant decrease in overall brain size in many MtF participants.  Of course, this isn't also without benefits as female hormones have a positive effect on memory, verbal skills, and 'balance' between the left and right sides.  Also, emotions are heightened and since they play key roles all throughout the mind, it stands to reason there's a beneficial effect here too, or at least the potential for it.

When I began HRT, just to be sure, I began taking multivitamins & omega oils, developed better nutrition, and 'exercised' my brain a few hours a day in various ways including learning a new language.  Over a year later, I would certainly consider my mind to be in a much better condition than on the outset.  In fact even areas of typical male strength like visual-spatial and analytical skills have sharpened rather than weaken, as I stimulate those skills on a daily basis.

The message being: yes while hormones do affect the brain, mental activity and nutrition are greater factors.  Besides, I'm pretty sure women are less susceptible to mental illnesses and dementia anyway... making this a bit moot.



  •  

katgirl74

There are so many other potential risks associated with HRT, I think possible dementia is the least of them. That aside, I think we go into this knowing that HRT can cause side effect up to and including death, but it sure as hell beats the alternative. I'd take the risk.
  •  

cynthialee

I started takeing my HRT knowing that each drug carries a certain risk. Up to and including death, sterility, and possible breast cancer. Now maybe dementia?

Doesn't change a thing for me. I will keep taking the HRT drugs.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
  •  

PanoramaIsland

I don't have a choice; my hypogonadotropism forces me to take hormones or end up in a wheelchair. The only choice I have is of which hormones to take.

Now, if the choice was between dementia on estrogen and good health on testosterone, I will admit that I might equivocate at length on that.
  •