I feel so dead.

[Cindy]

Hi Holly
As others have said we know what it's like. Jump the hoops as Jenny said. Sometimes you just have to be there, and shrinks are not there. Go for science. I only had my brains to carry me through. I worked my ass off to get to a point where I could do what I want to do. Be selfish it's your life go and live it. Make a plan, what do you need to get to Uni, to do what course, what do you want as a career? what skills do you need. Do it. Plan it. You will feel better straight away because you have a plan. Make damn sure that you control your destiny. Start thinking about your hair, face, clothes, body issues. List them and work on them, what do YOU want.  As you said you have a brain. That is all you need. Most people don't . Use it.

Holly, you are a young woman who has a great future. Grasp it, there will always be times of pain and GID. There will always be tears. But the future is not written, it is yours to write.

Hugs

Cindy; a female scientist, even if I publish under a male name

[rejennyrated]

I'm a mirror phobe as well. Wonder if it's something in the TS gene.

Definitely. Whne I was doing my reparative therapy and not being allowed to present as female at all I eventually grew a rather poor beard because I wouldn't use the mirror to shave. 

Of course my idiot therapist and my long suffering parents all took the arrival of a beard as a sign that at last my gender issues were being resolved and the reparative therapy was working. How wrong they were! But if anything after my treatment was over I swung the other way! I now spend hours of pleasurable time in front of one.

[lilacwoman]

I have to say that anyone thinking themselves MtF transsexual who finds crossdressing an ordeal doesn't score as transsexual in my book...in my town we have some activists trying to get this crossdressing aspect thrown out of the therapy for getting sex chnage as they say it is an ordeal etc...I say natal women enjoy dressing as women with all its attendant shopping and clothes/accessories/maekup chat..so if its an ordeal to someone claiming to be MtF then they haven't got the inner femaleness and are just fooling themself.
So Holly if you want people to accept you as a girl you have to show them one.

[BunnyBee]

I'll hold my tongue for the most part on this one...

Clothing may help some a great deal in preparing for living as a woman in the real world, others not so much.  I fail to see how wearing a skirt or w/e helped me prepare for living as a woman when, as a woman, I hardly ever wear them.

If jeans and a t-shirt from the female aisle (my basic uniform) count as "cross-dressing," then maybe just do that.  I dressed that way for years prior to transition and nobody noticed.  Well, my dad asked me if I was gay once, but that's about it =P.

Either way, Holly, I think it's true that you need to start getting used to the idea of seeing yourself as female if your goal is to transition, and you need to also get used to being a girl- along with everything that entails.  But I think you already understand that, so...

[HollyHC]

I didn't say I didn't like it, just that they play the clothing angle way too much.

I understand why they do it, but there must be better ways.

It feels like they're staking everything on a facet that isn't all that important, and might not even be present in some people.

I'll jump through the hoops like a good doggie , even though I'd prefer to bite them and give them rabies  .

[BunnyBee]

I'll jump through the hoops like a good doggie , even though I'd prefer to bite them and give them rabies.

Lol

[kyril]

I have to say that anyone thinking themselves MtF transsexual who finds crossdressing an ordeal doesn't score as transsexual in my book...in my town we have some activists trying to get this crossdressing aspect thrown out of the therapy for getting sex chnage as they say it is an ordeal etc...I say natal women enjoy dressing as women with all its attendant shopping and clothes/accessories/maekup chat..so if its an ordeal to someone claiming to be MtF then they haven't got the inner femaleness and are just fooling themself.
So Holly if you want people to accept you as a girl you have to show them one.

You've got a pretty narrow and stereotyped view of women here. I don't even identify as one, and I still find it offensive. "Inner femaleness" has nothing whatsoever to do with enjoying dressing up...hell, if it did, I would have had some luck fooling women into thinking I was one of them, and that has never worked.

OP: I can be a man without being a wooden automaton, and you can be a woman without being Barbie. My liking for glitter and silk and your preference for clothes you feel comfortable in have nothing whatsoever with our inner maleness or femaleness and everything to do with our individual personalities. That being said, when there are gatekeepers, it's best to just surrender and give them what they want, so long as it's not unacceptable or dehumanizing. Once they let you through the gate, you can turn around and speak from an empowered position and tell them that they're wrong.

[rejennyrated]

I say natal women enjoy dressing as women with all its attendant shopping and clothes/accessories/maekup chat..so if its an ordeal to someone claiming to be MtF then they haven't got the inner femaleness and are just fooling themself.
So Holly if you want people to accept you as a girl you have to show them one.

To be honest I too think that some of that is a bit harsh although I do agree with your last line.

The trouble is that if you look around you at the natal women they DONT all enjoy all the razz! I could introduce you to scores of natal women, including my own mother, who hardly ever touch makeup, and only wear a skirt or black dress when someone has died!

They ARE women, and they are very happy being women too. They just don't choose to do the glam bit. They express their innate femaleness in other ways. If one was going to judge soley by clothing style and use of makeup etc I would probably score as far more stereotypically female than my own mother! and yet the truth is she was a natal female while I was only natally intersexed.

So I have to say that in general I am not a great fan of anyone taking it upon themselves to challenge anyone else's self definition. I am with that section of the community who believe that, within reason, a person should be free to present and self define as what ever they choose. If Holly says she is a Transsexual, then she is in my books. Period!

If you doubt what I am saying just try walking into a lesbian club and telling all the butch element present that because they aren't dressed in properly feminine style they aren't real women, and then see what happens! Trust me on this - it won't go well!

However, and this is why I ultimately agree with Lilacwoman's final line, where that inclusive attitude finds its limits is when you are asking someone else (a doctor for example) to help you "become" that person.

In that case they do have the right to expect you to show them some advance evidence that you have it within you to make a go of the new life that they are going to help you create.

[placeholdername]

I think basically what they're asking for is to show them that you express yourself in female ways -- clothing is the typical thing, but it's not the only thing.  If clothes aren't what draws you, then what is it?  Show them that and I don't think they'll give you a hard time.

[NDelible Gurl]

I agree with CindyJames advice!

Holly I am really sorry things aren't looking up these days for you. I've been there and it's a lonely bleak place to be. I am in College presently and it's actually quite alright most of the time.

I feel that if you do your best academically you'll be better off in the future. For example I pay to go get my pills, go to appointments, buy some clothes (on a college student budget which isn't too much!), get my hair layered every other month, gas expenses (which are quite high), etc. I do these things and still make sure I study my "heinee" off. I also am the older sibling at home so I get all the responsibility of helping make some important decisions for my mother and father here.

Yes. It's a barrel of monkeys 

I am making this college business and uni afterwards my utmost priority in my life right now! Make sure you have a mantra of some sort so that you do not let things defeat you so easily! I pretty much just play things by ear but I also know if I don't take some chances I won't move forward. I've gone to Iron Working school and have dug ditches just to make enough money for my daily expenses. I do not agree with the lady who said you have to dress as a woman to be one. I know plenty of GGs who do not wear dresses and wear makeup to know that they are women in their hearts.

So you're still a young girl. If I were to have had the support and means to communicate as we do here- then I'm pretty darn sure I would have had that VJ by now already!

I hope you are feeling better by now. Don't hesitate to ask anyone here for advice or some pep talk.

{{{hugs}}}

[lilacwoman]

You've got a pretty narrow and stereotyped view of women here. I don't even identify as one, and I still find it offensive. "Inner femaleness" has nothing whatsoever to do with enjoying d.
[/quote

kyril!  what nonsense..you're FtM for goodness sake so of course you can't understand what I mean.
and while I don't doubt there are quite a few women who aren't feminine I'm quite sure they'd appear female.

[K8]

OK, everyone, let's settle down a little.  I know people have strong feelings about all this, but let's be careful to discuss the subject rather than the people.

Perhaps it's time to review rule 15:
15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

And while we're at it, rule 10:
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

• Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
• Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

[end  ]

- Kate

[kyril]

kyril!  what nonsense..you're FtM for goodness sake so of course you can't understand what I mean.
and while I don't doubt there are quite a few women who aren't feminine I'm quite sure they'd appear female.

But I do understand what you mean. Very much so. I know exactly what you're talking about, because I've got it - that inner enjoyment of dressing up and looking good and soft fabrics and even shopping. Sometimes, anyway...it is far too much effort to keep up all the time, but I have no doubt that I could muster the energy to do it a few times a week if that's what my gender therapist expected, and enjoy it too.

But it's not femaleness you're tapping into there. It's femininity. Actually, one of the things that tipped me off that my feeling of "wrongness" in a female life wasn't going to be cured by being a masculine woman was that I'm really just not all that masculine. There are probably millions of American women far more masculine than I am. I'm not really "me" right now because it doesn't work in this body, but when I do physically transition, I'll be a moderately flaming twink. And that's okay, I'm in some great company.

So maybe the OP is my MTF equivalent - a grown-up tomboy, a masculine woman who just doesn't place a high level of importance on clothing. I don't see why that should be a problem; there's no reason to expect the spectrum of gender expressions for trans people to be any narrower than it is for natal men and women.

And so my advice to the OP is to do the MTF equivalent of what I'm doing. I've taken on a reasonably-masculine jock-ish lifestyle (added benefit is that spending hours at the gym is doing wonders for my upper body...hello summer muscle shirts!) and I'm wearing rather baggy, boring clothes that get me read male; she could move toward a wardrobe, beauty routine, etc. that get her read female, until her body is able to do that by itself. But it doesn't have to be anything more than a means to an end.

[PanoramaIsland]

You've got a pretty narrow and stereotyped view of women here. I don't even identify as one, and I still find it offensive. "Inner femaleness" has nothing whatsoever to do with enjoying d.
[/quote

kyril!  what nonsense..you're FtM for goodness sake so of course you can't understand what I mean.
and while I don't doubt there are quite a few women who aren't feminine I'm quite sure they'd appear female.

Lilacwoman, as a genderqueer transwoman I find your comments offensive, sexist, and degrading. Womanhood is not about shopping and dressing up, and just because Kyril is a transman does not mean that he is somehow devoid of insight into the matter. Gender is simply not as simple, black-and-white and binary as you make it out to be. To say it is denies the validity of every single andro and genderqueer person on this forum, and completely ignores the enormous diversity of gender even within the "acceptable" bounds of the gender binary.

Stop trying to paint other trans people as illegitimate - especially someone who is struggling as much as Holly is.

[Miss LXC 2.0]

It took a while before I was comfortable going to a lesbian bar in just jeans and white tank top.
Its a rare occasion, but I am comfortable with it.
What is female as far as expression?
Find your own voice, style, and path.
I started out 2 years ago wearing more mini-skirts...I evolved into pencil skirts. Bright colors have subsided to neutrals.
I will still wear mini-skirt.
Make-up? I found my eyes stand out more if I down play my lips and go more neutral.
Enjoy the journey!