Do mtfs have unrealistic views and expectations of genetic women and womanhood?

[Chloe]

. . . Women may not always be nice and they may be downright cruel to you, at least they are alot less likely to be violent toward you, kill you or rape you. This isn't conjecture but statistics. .

Not to be argumentative or change the subject Hikari but I seriously question who's making up these *stats* when 1) physical violence is the only thing our lazy, overloaded court systems seem to be willing to consider, understand now-a-days and 2) it's a pretty well accepted fact that as a consequence general reporting by males, due to natural pride factors involved, is grossly non-existent to the point where male-chauvinism & neonazi-feminists are, on this score at least, United As One!

In other words *the stats* mean squat (so ya better base yer intra-personal, one-on-one relationships on something else)! In terms of well-being I'd trust an honest, forthright male (in spite of "faults") over the wily, indirect ways of a female anyday!

[SarahFaceDoom]

People are people.  There's societal things which treat people differently because of their gender, but in terms of any kind of moral stereotype--there is none.

[Rock_chick]

People always tend to have high expectations about anything that means a lot to them. Just look at all the people who hold unreasonable expectations about careers in music, modelling or TV. You've just got to surround yourself with good people and try not to work things up into an unreasonable fairy tale.

[Hikari]

@kiera: There may be some bias in the statistics, but I highly doubt their conclusion is wrong. In order for women to commit as many violent crimes as men the justice dept would have to be ignoring 402,000 female sexual assaults, 1.9 million female armed robbers, 12,000 female murderers, etc.

I think there may be a bit if a difference between the statistics and reality, due to people not wanting the women to have committed the violent act; but there is no way that the statistics are over 80% off. I mean contrary to stereotypes, no woman I have ever met can just gets out of a crime by virtue of being a woman, I am not saying it never happens, but I have never seen it, so It cannot be that prevalent.

The source for those numbers being the Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999 report.  they are based from 1993-1997. New statistics can be found at http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov

[Carlita]

@kiera: There may be some bias in the statistics, but I highly doubt their conclusion is wrong. In order for women to commit as many violent crimes as men the justice dept would have to be ignoring 402,000 female sexual assaults, 1.9 million female armed robbers, 12,000 female murderers, etc.

I think there may be a bit if a difference between the statistics and reality, due to people not wanting the women to have committed the violent act; but there is no way that the statistics are over 80% off. I mean contrary to stereotypes, no woman I have ever met can just gets out of a crime by virtue of being a woman, I am not saying it never happens, but I have never seen it, so It cannot be that prevalent.

The source for those numbers being the Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999 report.  they are based from 1993-1997. New statistics can be found at http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov

I can't speak for the US, but in the UK there has been a significant jump in crimes in general, and violent crimes in particular committed by women. This is due to (a) if women are free to behave as they want, rather than as a sexist society demands they will do many of the things that men have traditionally done, including committing crime and (b) there has been a massive increase in binge-drinking by young women and there is an absolutely rock-solid link between alcohol and violence. Most public violence by females is committed against other females ... there does, however, remain a huge gulf between the amount of violence committed by women against men that is reported by pollsters who speak to people anonymusly, and that reported to police. Men just will not come forward as victims because they fear (rightly in most cases) that police will either think they are wimps for 'allowing' a woman to attack them, or must have asked for it in some way. Attitudes to men in this context are where attitudes towards female rape victims were maybe 30 years ago, ie, 'She asked for it.'

[Chloe]

In order for women to commit as many violent crimes as men the justice dept would have to be ignoring 402,000 female sexual assaults, 1.9 million female armed robbers, 12,000 female murderers, etc.

Aye! Sorry my bad! I suppose I didn't make my point very clearly which is based on my experience only and was specifically referring to "father's rights" as it pertains to childbirth and family (and the gross inequalities that exist in the multi-billion dollar "poor her" Domestic Violence Industry)!

As far as the other crimes you mentioned all I can say is "go figure", you'd think all these running rampart male criminals never once had a mother or father!

[Silver]

Hm. On a related note, I think that a lot of trans men take a dim view of cis guys. It's like we trans guys are better men than cis men because we were brought up female and don't have all of those nasty male characteristics like aggression, competitiveness, obsession with our penises, etc. I really do think that a lot of trans men are anti-male. This might be especially true of guys who came from lesbian communities, I guess.

I've been thinking the same. I seem to have avoided a lot of the general male foolishness. And I can't be the only one.

[Hikari]

@kiera:
That's cool I got a bit defensive there when I really shouldn't have. I apologize for any misunderstanding. When it comes to domestic violence then you are absolutely right, people do like to turn a blind eye to women's participation in domestic violence.

I know in my mother and stepdad's 3 year marriage she only went to jail 5-6 times tops and he went at 10-20 times. He gave her a black eye she hit him with a car which breaks his legs, and he gets blamed, hardly seems fair... In any case I admit there are serious problems (at least here in the south) when it comes to domestic violence and custody (where men are rarely considered fit to be single parents apparently).

[Arch]

I've been thinking the same. I seem to have avoided a lot of the general male foolishness. And I can't be the only one.

Of course, things can change quite a lot on T, as they have for me. But trans guys actually try to tell me that if I'm more competitive and aggressive, it can't possibly be the T. They don't want to admit that a trans guy can be a lot like a cis guy, even without the "benefit" of male upbringing.

Because women, you know, are angels...

[K8]

I think that making any statement about people needs a lot of qualifiers – blanket statements don't work well (perhaps including this one ).  Women are people; men are people.  There are nice ones and not-nice ones and many who are sort of nice or nice much of the time but not always.

My friends – male and female - are nice to me and I am nice to them.  If they weren't nice to me they wouldn't be my friends.  If I wasn't nice to them I wouldn't be their friend.

As a woman I have found an informal sisterhood with other women, some of whom are strangers.  I never found that as a male, but then I wasn't all that good at pretending to be a man so it was probably me more than them.  As an outsider I have seen it among men sometimes.  I've certainly seen it among gay men, even though I wasn't one.  I don't have much close experience with lesbians, although the few I know pretty well are good friends to me even though I'm not a lesbian.  Still, you aren't automatically in the sisterhood or brotherhood just because you have a vagina or a penis or are gay or lesbian.

And, if I am allowed to make another general statement, I think some transsexuals have unrealistic views and expectations of what life will be like for them after transition.  But perhaps that is just a human condition too – having unrealistic expectations.

- Kate

[Nimetön]

Hm. On a related note, I think that a lot of trans men take a dim view of cis guys. It's like we trans guys are better men than cis men because we were brought up female and don't have all of those nasty male characteristics like aggression, competitiveness, obsession with our penises, etc. I really do think that a lot of trans men are anti-male. This might be especially true of guys who came from lesbian communities, I guess.

The feeling appears to be mutual; many transmen display the qualities of character that disqualify one from being regarded as a man among most non-TGs, regardless of anatomy.  Many of those traits are acceptable or even laudable among lesbians, and these transmen may find themselves more comfortable living out the remainder of their lives in such company.

I am unable to distinguish the general trend conversation among MtFs on Susans from that of biological females, but there are clear differences between that of the FtMs and those of the men I know.  However, given that I am not female, I may well be missing very obvious differences among women that I can spot easily among men.  It may also be, noting this and the previous observation, that MtFs are generally more successful in psychological and social transition than FtMs.

- N

[kyril]

I am unable to distinguish the general trend conversation among MtFs on Susans from that of biological females, but there are clear differences between that of the FtMs and those of the men I know.

Go on...
(I agree, but I'd like to hear your take on it more specifically)

I would like to point out though that while there are a lot of women here who have been socially and physically transitioned for a long time, the overwhelming majority of the guys are both very young and very early in transition. That's going to skew the conversation somewhat. FTMs who fully transition and "pass" seem to vanish into the ether, except for those who remain part of lesbian communities.

[Nimetön]

Go on...
(I agree, but I'd like to hear your take on it more specifically)

I was hoping to provoke others into giving their examples.  I've thought of writing out my observations and analyses on the differences between FtM and biomale mindsets, but I suspect that such an article would be met with a great deal of defensive and nonconstructive passion.

I would like to point out though that while there are a lot of women here who have been socially and physically transitioned for a long time, the overwhelming majority of the guys are both very young and very early in transition. That's going to skew the conversation somewhat. FTMs who fully transition and "pass" seem to vanish into the ether, except for those who remain part of lesbian communities.

That's an excellent point.  I hadn't considered that detail, but I agree with the assessment.

- M

[Arch]

I would like to point out though that while there are a lot of women here who have been socially and physically transitioned for a long time, the overwhelming majority of the guys are both very young and very early in transition. That's going to skew the conversation somewhat. FTMs who fully transition and "pass" seem to vanish into the ether, except for those who remain part of lesbian communities.

Agreed. I also observe that while a lot of FTMs come from anti-male separatist communities, I've never heard of an MTF who came from an anti-female separatist community. I think that this phenom has a bearing on what we are talking about, although I'm not prepared to delve into that too deeply here.

Another thing--since T has indelible effects on MTFs that E cannot reverse, these folks probably spend a lot more time and effort in learning stereotypical female mannerisms so that they can "pass" more readily. But the FTMs have the benefit of T and don't necessarily feel the need to study male mannerisms so assiduously. This could be especially true if they continue to spend a lot of their time in spaces that are predominantly female. In such an environment, it would be acceptable, and, indeed, preferable, for these FTMs to hang onto some of the fem characteristics they still have. (Otherwise, I suspect that they would not be able to move in these circles at all...even in very small groups of close-knit friends.)

Again, this is pure speculation.

I wonder if trans men who maintain close ties with lesbians ever feel like they are in a double bind. Could they retain or even seek to adopt certain stereotypical fem traits so as to appear more trans and less male? If that makes any sense? Because I know that some lesbians are very, very, suspicious of men and feel (sort of going back to the original topic) that women are better human beings than men; would a trans guy in a relationship with such a woman feel pressured to act more female?

Am I too off topic here? Maybe we guys should start over somewhere else.

[Arch]

When people go online, it's like they're driving around in their cars. The computer, like the car, provides a buffer zone from other people. The person stays in his or her own little world.

Sometimes this leads to very rude behavior. I have a pet theory that people who are a$$holes online are rude drivers, and vice versa. And that considerate driving and considerate Internetting go hand in hand.

It might just be that female-dominated spaces exacerbate the passive-aggressive catty behavior that is inculcated in girls from an early age. Girls are socialized that way because society in general does indeed like to have a sweetness-and-light view of girls. Active aggression is not only discouraged but punished, so girls learn to be aggressive in other ways. That is, passively.

I don't really think MTFs in particular have an unrealistic view of women and girls; I think society in general is still operating under that belief. Perhaps it's diminishing in recent years, but you can still see it working merrily away in mainstream American society.

[Amazon D]

Its definately an individual thing. I know for myself I always thought i didn't quite fit in but i had seen others who i thought did.

Seems to me if we have a problem with other people or groups of people, we want to find other people to support our views.

Somewhere along the way i finally realized that i fit in more than i thought i had in the past but i was too focused on my self in the past to see that truth.

So the end of the story is don't worry and be so self focused because you can always find what your looking for even if its negative. And its a waste of time trying to get others to support our self focused views. I know this because i did this to myself ohhhhh sooo many times.. 

seek the positive    seek    the    positive           seek        the          positive 

[kyril]

I don't really think MTFs in particular have an unrealistic view of women and girls; I think society in general is still operating under that belief. Perhaps it's diminishing in recent years, but you can still see it working merrily away in mainstream American society.

This.

[Silver]

I was hoping to provoke others into giving their examples.  I've thought of writing out my observations and analyses on the differences between FtM and biomale mindsets, but I suspect that such an article would be met with a great deal of defensive and nonconstructive passion.

If it's worth anything, I'd be interested in reading it.

[Kurzar]

Hm. On a related note, I think that a lot of trans men take a dim view of cis guys. It's like we trans guys are better men than cis men because we were brought up female and don't have all of those nasty male characteristics like aggression, competitiveness, obsession with our penises, etc. I really do think that a lot of trans men are anti-male. This might be especially true of guys who came from lesbian communities, I guess.

I find that I don't, unless the male is just an out right ass lol  I do find I understand certain things better than I think bio guys do, but I definitely pull for the guys team in general. I also find that I'm as anti woman, especially with someone who's an outright bitch.  I suppose I'm pretty fair sided in my opinions =D

[Sarah_Faith]

Right. You just happened to get me with red wine and I'm feeling passionate, so here goes!

It's my opinion that every single person here has thought about their life, what they feel, what they think, how they think, every moment of their life without end. GID is just that. For me anyway, every single thing I do and say is shaped and targeted towards who I actually am, rather than who I appear to be.

Now, you say perhaps that our opinion is unrealistic. I can only speak for me, but in my experience, just about every single person who has GID has the same life, same story, same feelings, same background, just individuals vary a little bit.

Referring to my point that I have lived my entire life, as long as I have living memory, under no circumstances have I any false ideals or notions about 'womanhood'. I am me. You are you. Simple as. It's the person that decides how they interact, not the gender of that person.

If I asked you what to expect if you moved to some distant suburb of inner china, you more than likely wouldnt have a bloody clue. You have never experienced it. Not completly. You may have seen it on tv, or have met someone who was there.

That is not a perfect metaphor for GID as feeling this way gives you natural inclinations that aren't learned, but felt. BUT, no one knows exactly what anything is until they have been there. Worn the proverbial t-shirt.

So to summarise and I did say at the beginning I've had red wine so I'm feeling passionate

No, nobody knows exactly what something is like unless they have been in that exact situation, BUT, when your entire life is shaped by something and everything you think about and feel is because of that thing, you begin to think very realistically about your options and how things will actually change should you transition.

In life there are good people and bad people. Let's keep this forum full of good:)