I guess this is a legal issue, but ... Arizona demands birth certs for ID

[Autumn]

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Man-says-he-was-racially-targeted-forced-to-provide-birth-certificate-91769419.html

Basically this man was born in America but he's hispanic. So under the new Arizona law to throw out all illegals, he was stopped and demanded to provide his papers. He's got a SSN and a commercial driver's license, but they said that wasn't enough. So they demanded a birth certificate and arrested him.

My immediate thought, as selfish as it is, is slippery slope towards other states adopting this policy, particularly for those of us from states where you cannot change your birth certificate sex. God knows minority transpeople are a horrible target for abuse, especially from the system, but all of us are at risk.

Papers please. ->-bleeped-<-s.

[Janet_Girl]

To start with it is Maricopa county, Sheriff Joe Dumbarss country.  I am not surprised that the gentleman had trouble.  They need to sue in federal court.  This law will lead to racial profiling big time.

We may not be next, but they would put us on the radar.

[Britney_413]

I actually agree with the law but if and only if it is enforced in a constitutional manner. If the police are going to be hassling people because of their skin color then that is wrong. The way I understand it though is that if a police officer has probable cause (which has to be something more than just race) that the person is not in the country illegally they should have the right to further investigate that. For those of you who don't live in Arizona, you don't know what it is like here. We have been overrun by illegals for a long time and not all of them are the nice hardworking honest people looking for a better life that the media wants you to believe.

If a cop stops someone for something such as a speeding violation and the driver can't speak a word of English nor provide a valid DL and registration, then that right there is probable cause. If the police further cannot properly identify the person then that certainly makes it all the more suspicious. If it does turn out that they aren't here legally, I'm all for deportation. Immigration is good for our country, just do it legally. America should put Americans first. We had a revolution in this country. If Mexicans are unhappy with Mexico then they should start a revolution down there. Enough said.

[tekla]

I'd just love to have someone/anyone explain to me just how the hell this law is going to be enforced outside of racial profiling. Short of detaining every single Hispanic you see, exactly what is going to cause "reasonable suspicion" that someone is here illegally?  There is nothing other than racial characteristics to do that.  And at that exact second all you are doing is racial profiling, which is un-constitutional.

I would think if you don't have a DL or registration, or proof of insurance, in Cali you're out of the car and its impounded.  As for not speaking a word of English, I'm not aware its a national language, matter of fact, its the law that in several places, Arizona among them, that legal documents have to be printed in both English and Spanish - that was part of the treaty we signed.  In Southern Louisiana people speak a kind of pigeon-French called Creole.  I can hear up to 7 languages spoken every day here, it's part of being an international trade center and a modern cosmopolitan city.

The up-side of this is that the 'Pubs have farked themselves (without lube, again) when it comes to the Hispanic vote.  Hell, even Karl Rove - hardly some left-wing, bleeding heart - called it constitutionally problematic, and wished they hadn't passed it.

The real solution is well known and works.  All you have to do it remove the incentive to hire illegals with crippling punishments for hiring them, (including tossing a couple of CEO/VP of Human Resources types into jail) while you remove the incentive to circumvent the immigration process by streamlining it and making it much easier to emigrate here.

After all, who exactly has supported this 'policy' (or non-policy is more like it)?  Business has been the big supporter of cheap labor, not any political position.  And I don't see a lot of rich people out protesting any of this because god knows the lawn ain't going to cut itself so you need Juan, and the beds are not going to make themselves without Consuela showing up to do it.

[Janet_Girl]

The one thing that gets me, is not only the racial profiling of Hispanics, but anyone who looks Hispanic.  When I lived in Tucson, I was often mistaken from being Hispanic.  I tan real easy.

[tekla]

Oh no, the best part of the law is that any citizen can sue the local police for not enforcing the law.  So, not only are the cops going to get sued when they start getting all enforcement like on people who were born in East L.A., hell my Mexican GF's family has been in the US since the US took the land they were on, became Texicans then.  They had settled that land and area in the 1820s (a solid generation before my family got off the boat from Ireland and/or Germany) and became Americans by default in the 1830s.  Most of them are now in the Detroit area, have been since the 1940s, working in defense plants, and other industrial settings.  Big guys.  Really, big guys!  They think that just because they were born here, and their parents, and their parents parents, and the ones before that too, and because they are all insufferable Lions/Tigers/Buckeye/Wolverine fans, and because they grew up in this town, and all played on championship sports teams, and all have big assed Ford and Chevy pickups, and do union work, and fly the flag, served in the military, and all that ... that they are American.  Try asking one of them for 'their papers'.  Not happening.

I'm quite certain that there are many Mexican families there in Arizona that have been there long before the gringos ever showed up.  Try asking one of them for their papers.  Yeah, thought so.  Lawsuit!  Lot's of zeros! 

So, while that obvious deal - and taking cases to the Supreme Court is not for the weak-in-the-wallet types, no sir! - is going on, anyone & everyone with a grudge against their local police department (Hi, I'm Kat and I have a problem with authority) can sue them and drag their asses into court and make them prove they are trying to do something - while trying not to admit that anything they can do is un-constitutional.  It's going to be a huge mess.

Not to mention the huge hit in tourism, which is a very important industry in AZ.

[lisagurl]

Not to mention the huge hit in tourism, which is a very important industry in AZ.

I do not know any one who would not go to the Grand Canyon because of the law. In fact as you go into CA they stop you to inspect for produce a much more intrusive gesture.

[tekla]

I was thinking more like spring training, if the law gets that far, and it won't.

[juliekins]

I was thinking more like spring training, if the law gets that far, and it won't.

Heck, you might have half of the MLB players not show up to Spring training out of either protest or fear that they will be arrested!

[tekla]

It could be a bit of a problem when nine of the top 10 most common surnames have Latino origins. Following Rodriguez (95) it's Martinez (68), Gonzalez (65), Perez (63), Garcia (62), Hernandez (57) and Ramirez (53). Indeed, the only non-Latino surname to crack the top 10 was Smith, which was represented by 40 Americans and one Canadian.

(numbers are for MLB and all farm clubs)

[Dana Lane]

The up-side of this is that the 'Pubs have farked themselves (without lube, again) when it comes to the Hispanic vote.

You go that right! November is coming up and they just scared the sh*t out of every Hispanic in the country. Who are they going to vote for? This could be devastating for the right.

[tekla]

Well yeah, even Rove and Bush understood the nature of the Hispanic vote, it's growing numbers and the fact that as a group they tend to pretty conservative political notions and are pretty damn Catholic too.  But like Prop 187 in California, it tells the Hispanic vote that the Republicans really don't want them, and that's going to be mighty hard to overcome.

[Britney_413]

I have an idea. Since you all don't live here in Arizona, how about you don't tell us how to run our state.

[Janet_Girl]

But I have lived there.

[tekla]

We all still live in the same country, and federal law always trumps state law.

[Barbara H.]

I am not a Latina nor could I pass for one. Never-the-less, I will not travel to nor spend one dollar knowingly on anything made in Arizona. Also, since I have boycotted Mobile-Exxon for years and now I have to boycott BP/Shell-----------where do I get gas?

[LordKAT]

Kwik trip

[juliekins]

How about we put a fence around AZ to keep people out of the state, both Mexicans and right minded Americans from other places?

[Britney_413]

For anyone who actually takes the trouble to read the law, it prohibits racial profiling and requires due process in the interrogation, arrest, and conviction of an illegal alien. Cops can't just go around harrassing people. The law requires that an officer first has probable cause to detain the suspect for a different type of violation (such as a traffic law) then if during the interrogation of that issue the officer has additional probable cause to believe that the suspect is in the U.S. illegally, they can do a further investigation and press charges if necessary. That sounds completely reasonable to me.

If an officer pulls someone over for a broken tail light and asks the driver for license and registration and the driver doesn't even know enough English to answer that request, that is suspicious right there. If you have lived in the U.S. long enough to have a license you ought to know enough English to deal with police. Naturalization requirements include a minimum proficiency of English in the first place. Second, if the driver can't produce his license and registration and further if the officer can't figure out who he is, his name and info doesn't come up in the computer database, etc. then the cop can actually take further action.

Again, most of you don't live in Arizona. While some of these people are working full time and taking care of their children, every single one of them is a criminal. First, it is a criminal offense to be in the U.S. illegally. Many of the "decent hardworking illegals" have already broken a host of laws to get a job, apartment, etc. which is mainly identity theft. They are also committing tax fraud if they aren't paying into the system plus many of them use our social services such as schools, hospitals, and welfare programs draining our economy. Plus, many of them aren't working at all. Many of them are heavily involved with violent organized gangs and are dealing drugs and involved in many violent and property crimes.

Someone said they used to live in Tucson. So did I. They bypass Tucson and go straight to Phoenix for the most part which is where most of the crime is occuring. When I lived in Tucson I don't really remember seeing many Hispanics for instance. Here in Phoenix that is pretty much all I do see. There is simply no way that all of them are here legally. Americans don't have the right to go to other countries illegally. If an American started parading around the capitol of Mexico City waiving a U.S. flag and denouncing Mexico they would probably be shot. Yet somehow they can come here and we are supposed to open our arms. BS.