Rally Congress on ENDA

[lisagurl]

What I was talking with the scientist comment was the individual's right and duty to reason out their own path and follow that path, and the duty of everyone to respect and tolerate those differences instead of expecting everyone to conform.

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Social dynamics is not a controllable force. It is people's responsibility to take care of them selves which also does not seem to work very well. You are a dreamer if you think that you can live as you like without respecting those who hold power around you.

[PanoramaIsland]

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Social dynamics is not a controllable force. It is people's responsibility to take care of them selves which also does not seem to work very well. You are a dreamer if you think that you can live as you like without respecting those who hold power around you.

And you are batting at straw men. One must understand and respect the power that is held by the powerful, whether one chooses to go with or against the grain of power's ideas and actions. Ultimately, though, human beings must constantly struggle to hold the powerful accountable to the powerless as best we can. Bowing our heads to whatever force has seized power at the moment is cowardly, it is small-minded, and it leads societies to collapse into monotony, inflexibility, and eventual decline and crumble.

The concept that social dynamics cannot be controlled is preposterous. Those in control of media mold society's views and beliefs, and those in control of sanctioned force - police, military, prisons - mold both beliefs and actions by giving people an authority both to believe in and to fear. Our society bombards us with messages from every direction - not just television, advertising, and official government policy, but architecture, city planning, clothing,  art and music, and on and on and on. This is how social dynamics work, and this is why totalitarian regimes tend to be so insular; by controlling what is expressed, what is said and published, built and worn, listened to and seen, a government can shape the minds and emotions of its subjects, and overwhelm anyone who dissents with emotions of shame and self-doubt. That's why totalitarians hate the Internet.

If we don't take the time to reconsider and think through the messages with which we are bombarded, we actively contribute to the dumbing and numbing of our society. It is just that simple. An open society depends not just on a secure voting system, but on open and actively inquiring minds.

To put it shortly, there's no point in having a voting system if all the voters are mindless sheep.

[lisagurl]

Those in control of media mold society's views and beliefs

Those who do not subscribe to media have no fears of it. I do not have a TV.

Our society bombards us with messages from every direction

I live in the country without signs and even take off all labels and logos on everything I own.

That's why totalitarians hate the Internet.

LOL the Internet is the greatest commercial promoter of all. Why do you think it is free? Everyone has their propaganda working. They follow every key stroke and custom provide information just for you. Computers and recorded data is the biggest cultural manipulator the world has ever seen.  But then I am a spineless non-emotional, unemphatic, independent.  How is that propaganda school treating you?

[PanoramaIsland]

I wasn't just talking about "media," I was talking about pervasive cultural messaging.

The Internet is the best equalizer produced so far, actually. Many of the dominant voices on the Net are people who just start a blog or a site in their spare time. Sites like BoingBoing, 4Chan, 2Chan, Wikipedia and Slashdot never had commercial funding, and they're playing on the same level as digitized print and television media - often better, because their content is built specifically for the Internet format and audience by Net-savvy amateurs instead of dinosaur traditional media execs.

If you're concerned about people getting your personal info on the Net, do what any concerned and computer-literate Netizen does - run a good firewall, encrypt your e-mails, be discriminating in what you sign up for, and change passwords frequently.

"They" are not reading your every keystroke unless "they" have made a keystroke-logging virus that has spread to your computer, in which case (a) why is your security so poor? and (b) "they" are more likely to be a sociopathic teenager or college student than a large company.

If "they" "custom provide" information "just for you," did "they" create Susan's? I can't see much profit in making a forum and Website for trans people.

It's actually very difficult to make money on the Internet. It's one of the things i like about the Net - there's very little money in it, which means very little corporate interference. The Net was invented by scientists and engineers on the US Military dole - ARPANet, the Advanced Research Projects Agency Network, was the first long-distance computer network operated via packet switching, the proof of concept for the Internet. It was used as a method of communication and data transfer between university science departments. Hardly corporate.

If it provides you with any comfort, I refuse to wear clothing with company logos on it; the only logos I wear are t-shirts and patches for bands making fairly obscure music. Again, not exactly corporate. I take the labels off my pants and shoes and everything.

Accusing others of being duped by propaganda is pretty disingenuous. I don't exactly live in a Wal-Mart myself, you know.

[lisagurl]

Hardly corporate.

Bell Labs designed the circuits and Western Electric built the electronic switching that made the net possible. Then Reagan broke it up.
Every major switching center has a room with black Government boxes that monitor all traffic. It then in turn is run through huge super computers to identify key words and patterns.  There seems to be more privacy at Times Square.

[PanoramaIsland]

You seem to hate both the government and the corporations. What would you have us do? Run the entire world as a collection of small nonprofit organizations?

If you're an Anarchist, you should just come out and say it. There's nothing wrong with having a position, however untenable it may be. 

[tekla]

Lisa is right about the government filtering each and every last keystroke.  And if you're using Chrome, FireFox, Facebook, other programs are also doing the same.

[tekla]

I didn't say they stored them, I said they scan them, running them through a filter looking for certain words, phrases and the like.

[PanoramaIsland]

Haven't you heard? The world we live in isn't real! We're actually being farmed as living batteries by sentient machines, and our brains are plugged into this fictional world to keep us ignorant of the truth.

Plus, there're hot people.

[lisagurl]

You seem to hate both the government and the corporations.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is better to have weak small city states than a powerful global force.
Post Merge: May 20, 2010, 01:34:33 PM

I didn't say they stored them, I said they scan them, running them through a filter looking for certain words, phrases and the like.

But Twitter wants to store every tweet it has saved.
Post Merge: May 20, 2010, 02:37:38 PM

our brains are plugged into this fictional world

Try to not promote fiction and you might see a real world.

[PanoramaIsland]

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is better to have weak small city states than a powerful global force.

Oh, come ON. Answer my question!

If you're against the power of both corporations and government, are you an Anarchist? If not, what are you?

This time, don't dodge the question. Actually answer it. Pretty please?

[lisagurl]

If not, what are you?

This time, don't dodge the question. Actually answer it. Pretty please?

I am an independent. I do not believe in force of any kind including Government, churches and corporations forcing its form of culture as well as religion of Secular Humanism and consumerism. It seems to me that they are heading for a goal of globalization with 2 classes, ruling and workers.

[Jasmine.m]

It seems to me that they are heading for a goal of globalization with 2 classes, ruling and workers.

Uh... Aren't we pretty much already there?

In the meantime, back to the topic at hand... Perhaps we workers should encourage our rulers (aka, representatives) to pass ENDA!!

[PanoramaIsland]

I am an independent. I do not believe in force of any kind including Government, churches and corporations forcing its form of culture as well as religion of Secular Humanism and consumerism. It seems to me that they are heading for a goal of globalization with 2 classes, ruling and workers.

See, but you're cutting yourself off from all forms of recourse except for private nonprofits here. You say that the public sector is bad, and then turn around and say that the private sector is bad too. That's why I ask if you're an Anarchist - you would seem, logically speaking, to believe in running society by some sort of vast network of non-coercive nonprofits, funded by donation. I criticized such a position as untenable because it is. I'd really love for this to be a solution to our problems - I've read a bit of Anarchist theory myself - but it's not. It's completely unrealistic...

...which brings us back to square one. Since we are in fact stuck with the public sector and the private sector, which one do we trust more (or distrust less)? It would seem that you favor corporations over government, which would make you a Libertarian, but I recall that you balked at that label previously.

"Independent" is not a political philosophy. It's a choice not to register with one of the two mainstream parties. I want to know what your political philosophy is. You sound like a right-wing uber-Libertarian about two thirds of the time, and a left-wing Anarchist about a third of the time. The problem is, you just can't have it both ways.

[lisagurl]

You say that the public sector is bad

You are making a straw man argument. I said large is the problem not private or Government. Small local community Government works when you have local knowledge of the people and face to face communication. Small business works fine when you have face to face communication with the business owners and people who support it with their honest labor as they are also members of the community. Where the problem lies is people a thousand miles away telling you how your community should value life.
Post Merge: May 20, 2010, 05:22:26 PM

Yet here you are, using an Internet connection provided by a private telco company and using an avatar from a popular anime (Alita I believe) which gained popularity from being produced and sold by a private corporation. No doubt 99% of the products you buy are part of a chain that ends in wealthy corporations (including the computer you're posting this on and all the components therin) - from your cell phone to your refrigerator.
How ironic.

First I helped build the electronic switching system for Western Electric in Chicago that this information is riding on.  The avatar was given to me by a friend. I have no cell phone or TV. I buy local and farmers market when it is available. I make what I can including building my own house with the help of local labor, (no illegals), I avoid Walmart and China made goods as I live an austere life and not because I have to but to avoid supporting consumerism. It took years to learn about how the education system and American Consumerism lifestyle is killing both America and Freedom .

[PanoramaIsland]

You are making a straw man argument. I said large is the problem not private or Government. Small local community Government works when you have local knowledge of the people and face to face communication. Small business works fine when you have face to face communication with the business owners and people who support it with their honest labor as they are also members of the community. Where the problem lies is people a thousand miles away telling you how your community should value life.

So you're a state's rights Libertarian, with some lefty views on things like food issues and consumerism. Good for you! Our social goals may be closer than you realize - we just have different ideas of how to get to those goals. I'd advise you to own it, though, instead of just piling on this vague, semi-coherent assortment of beliefs and calling yourself an "independent." As my favorite community college professor likes to say to me, There's A Philosophy For That (TM). Own your philosophy! It's very empowering, and a lot better than just spending your time just shaking with rage, resignedness, frustration and fear at the state of things as they are (which many Americans seem to do).

I wouldn't say I was setting up a straw man, I just didn't know that you were in favor of local governance. For what it's worth, I am as well in many cases (though certainly not all - I'm not a right-wing "state's rights" type). I also prefer to shop at local businesses and farmer's markets whenever I can, and I'm lucky to live in a place where I can do that most of the time.

[lisagurl]

As much you try to avoid it, you cannot.

Coops can handle the needs of people having members to control the interaction with things needed that are not local resources. Electric coops, Lumber coops, health coops, and many more . Yes in modern life sometimes we do not have a choice but for instance you said refrigerator. The compressor is made in my town. You can vote with your dollar and control corporations and their ethics. You can invest the same way. Most people are too lazy to be involved or even care about how and where the products they use are made. Price is not the best way to buy. We can also have the laws changed to demand pollution and human rights attached to trade. We can have corporate laws that require charters to include public good as a requirement to be in business and make the officers personally responsible for all corporate activity. Make those people earn their high pay. But do this at local scales not national. Not everyone wants or needs ENDA.

[tekla]

We can have corporate laws that require charters to include public good as a requirement to be in business and make the officers personally responsible for all corporate activity.

Yeah, and then there's Delaware.  There is a reason they get a lions share of corporate charters granted there.

[PanoramaIsland]

You missed out your computer there; it's practically an homage to big business; each component being produced by multinational corporations and their subsidiaries.
Your local farmers use petrol and vehicles to transport their food (oil automotive corporations being some of the biggest and most corrupt in the world) and they use pesticides produced by the big corporations. The building materials from your house are products of corporate enterprises, from the copper wiring in the walls to the paint on the exterior.
As much you try to avoid it, you cannot.
You're a cog in the machine. Accept it.

It's hard being against The Machine when your very survival depends on said Machine, hm?
Post Merge: May 21, 2010, 02:47:42 PM

Not everyone wants or needs ENDA.

But many do, and there's a word for not caring about something because you don't believe that it effects you personally. It's called selfishness. You been reading Ayn Rand lately, or what?

[lisagurl]

But many do, and there's a word for not caring about something because you don't believe that it effects you personally

The truth is few want another unenforceable law giving special privileges to a hand full. All the laws we need are already on the books then there is always lawsuits. Each separate community has the power to define its own culture it is not the Federal government's role to play. Besides the civil rights act never solved the problem. Humans will not accept the government telling them to care especially when they have different values. Just as socialism failed,  people work harder for themselves rather than the society. If anything people care for family and friends more than others that do not hold their values. It matters not how it effects me personally what I want is for the human race to continue and it will have much suffering if we keep making more people than we have resources for. Social programs just encourage over consumption.
Post Merge: May 21, 2010, 03:54:05 PM

It's hard being against The Machine when your very survival depends on said Machine, hm?

Fact is we made more people because of the machine and that can not last. There will be great suffering because of it and the plan would be to reduce population the least painful way. Today 5000 children and 23000 adults have died due to lack of clean water and food. Same thing every day. Their survival was depended on the machine but the machine needs resources to work and we have run out of enough to keep on growing much less live on the reserves. If you care you would put a priority on reducing population growth much more than cultural discrimination.