I think MTFs are beautiful.

[Hermione01]

Easy, some of the other "TS"girls I have met are a LADY. Most genetic girls I have spent time with are either too controlling and independent in a way that is EGO. Not to mention all the hang ups or otherwise involved with genetic girls.

I know you're not meaning to be disrespectful but I think your opinions are a bit off kilter. I have two friends who are ts women and have met many in the last couple of years who have all the same and diverse characteristics as genetic women, so I can't understand what you're trying to say.

[uni]

I think MtF are often more in touch with their feminitity because pre trans they obviously lack certain physical attributes so they have to compensate.

Of course this is a generalization, but how many of you have known a woman that looks super feminine that acts otherwise? I have a sweet looking girl friend that swears like a trucker and is very assertive and outspoken. She can get away with it. If an already more "masculine" looking female were to act masculine, others would think she wants to be a man. There's a balance I think everyone tries to maintain to control others' perceptions. If my friend were to act as sweet and innocent as she looks, others would view her as stuck up or a goody goody. People think I look sad or angry all the time because I don't have a fake smile plastered to my face so I must present myself in a more cheerful manner when I do communicate. It's all about the balance.

[LordKAT]

I think it is because they have to do a lot of introspection and that leads to their confidence in being themselves. But what do I know.

[YellowDaisy]

well that's nice to hear, because many people think the opposite. it makes me happier with myself when people give those kinds of compliments.

[Hermione01]

Wow, I haven't seen such blatant misogyny in quite a while.

Exactly what I thought. 

[Kaelin]

It may also work.  My parents proved that much (they function more or less as co-heads of the household, with one taking more responsibility when one is significantly stronger than the other on an issue... and these strengths don't neatly fall along traditional gender lines).

Yes, you are old-fashioned.

Men, women, and others should be who they are.  If you are a "traditional" woman that wants a "traditional" man, then go for one.  However, that's not going to work for everyone.  While I consider myself open to a healthy range of women, I would not be interested in one that is entirely traditional.  This is not to say you cannot be entirely traditional, of course.  You are your own person, after all.

It's okay to say what you want.  But when you start saying than other people should be what you want, then you're entering a territory of greed and demanding conformity that attacks the true nature of others.


Late addition: If there are supposedly more women who are masculine than men who want someone feminine, then I suspect femininity itself has a problem.  Society does not value femininity very well -- and that seems to show why people like it in others (men liking it in women) more than they like it in themselves (women doing it for themselves).

To me, personally, I think masculinity/femininity are red herrings.  What I think people should do it try is utilize their strengths and try to be good human beings (regardless of how "masculine" or "feminine" that makes them), and they should look for others to do the same.

[uni]

Sorry you interpreted it that way. I don't believe all woman are like what I speak of, but there are those circles that are and that's the ones I speak of. If I was on the hunt for a woman and she possesed any of the said traits I run the other way.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but the man is generally the head of the household. Take that away from him and the marriage may just fail.

Take it how you like.

You raise an interesting view. Many men feel that their masculinity is being trampled on as women take on more and more of their roles in society. They wish to "preserve" their masculinity but the only way to do this is by oppressing women.

Think of typical male jobs verse female jobs. More men are becoming nurses and women welcome them with open arms because they simply don't care. But if a women wanted to be a mechanic she would have to go above and beyond just to prove that she is capable and even then, many guys wouldn't want her there.

I would never enter a marriage if I couldn't 100% support myself if it were to fail. Am I less of a woman because I reject the idea of head of the household? Am I any less of a woman because I want independence and have an opinion? I think people who say yes want men to have dominance and woman to be subordinate which I am glad is becoming an old fashioned idea.

[Kaelin]

I have edited my previous post a bit (the new stuff is after the line break), but I see uni sort of beat me to the punch a bit.

To respond to uni, it is very wise to not leave yourself at the mercy of someone else should you need a divorce.  Having that independence positions you in a way where you can have an equal voice.  It is the sort of example that shows where traditional femininity runs into trouble -- at best, the husband ends up calling all the shots and tries to make sure he properly value his wife's judgment; at worst, he abuses his power and makes her do things she would never do if she had the financial means to escape.  I think it is unreasonable for a man (or a woman for that matter) to expect to have this kind of authority in a relationship, but it also speaks to why masculinity and femininity need to be scrutinized.

This is sort of where I wound up with my post edit, but I think this issues speaks to the need of people to embrace making *good* decisions rather than masculine or feminine decisions.  I don't think it's good for any man or woman to be violent or subservient.  I think it is good for any man or woman to be effective caregivers and well-educated.  It is true that a someone cannot be all good things and no bad things, but if the two people in a relationship can do enough of what needs to be done and avoid enough of the pitfalls, they can do well.

If these men don't want to have to do the unpaid traditional work, I would recommend they pay either their wives (to be) or someone else to do it to show how much they value it.  I have a hunch that for most traditional men that they don't realize how much that work is really worth.  And if they want their wives to make themselves nice and pretty without paying them (as they might an escort), then these men need to do some other favor or show some other courtesy accordingly.  Many men take this effort for granted, and they end being quite selfish/greedy and not even realize it.

[tekla]

I don't even think in terms of 'general' because as it turns out, there is no general anymore.  I don't know about the difference between male head of households, and female head of households - I don't think we have enough data to compare.

But, I'm damn sure that a single head of household deal tends to work out much better than a two head of household deal.  And that confusion and constant power tripping is far, far better then a no head of household household.  Damn Skippy about that one.

At some point someones' got to make a decision.  I've always been in the 'don't be that person' camp, but if I have to, I will.  Always fighting about who is making the decision is not efficient, and not making a decision is almost always a bad idea.  So there has to be a process of arriving at a decision in relationships.

However people choose to work that out in their relationships is up to them in mutual consent.  If that's met - if both sides consent to it, them I'm down with it, pretty much no matter what their doing is OK with me, I'm groovy with it.  After all, relationships can be defined in different ways, and all of those ways have succeed.  And all of them have failed too.  So there you go.  You pay your money and you take your chances.

The deal I had with my ex went: I'd make the big decisions, she'd make the little decisions.  But, the decision as to what is big or little, was in and of itself, a little decision.  We make a bit over 20 years that way, not too bad.   

[accord03]

Yeah, some MTFS who's gone under surgery are quiet attractive. 

[Natalie3174]

The Jedi used to tell me that women were not equal to men and the Sith were evil. But since Ive stopped following that dogmatic view of the Jedi I believe we are all a part of the Force. The Force glows in those with confidence.
I love Christina Aguliera's song "Beautiful" as a point of view.

[Kaelin]

At some point someones' got to make a decision.  I've always been in the 'don't be that person' camp, but if I have to, I will.

At least if it is arranged for, it is still possible when two people are "heads" for one to take charge without necessarily going through the partner.  Sometimes there can be criticism after the fact, but generally any "problems" with the result pale in comparison with the effort/value of having the task accomplished.  If the non-task doer has too many complaints, then it may be a case where a trade or sharing in responsibilities is in order.  Of course, if they are both passionate "experts" with diverging opinions, there could be problems, but they probably would have cared about the issue enough to have discussed it before entering in a long-term relationship.

Two-heads are definitely more complicated, but some people like what the extra engagement offers them.

[inoutallabout]

What's hotter than a chick with a...

Yeah, hear it all the time:)

IMHO: GG's are generally prettier, but the transformation in some transmen and transwomen, may only be described as beautiful.  Bravo.
Post Merge: May 24, 2010, 01:34:02 AM

Easy, some of the other "TS"girls I have met are a LADY. Most genetic girls I have spent time with are either too controlling and independent in a way that is EGO. Not to mention all the hang ups or otherwise involved with genetic girls.

Excuse me?

Most transwomen I've met in real life have left me with bile in my throat.  Ladylike?  More like delusional, egotistically indulgent imitations.  What comes to mind is post WW2 Geishas, where any chick who could put on a polyester kimono would refer to herself as such.  There's an ever elusive minority, it seems, that convey something beyond that.  Ladies?  Hmmph.  Perhaps within the folds of one of our other 10 dimensions.

[BunnyBee]

This thread is making me "eep" ...a lot.

[Kaelin]

I guess I will talk about the topic for a bit.

Surgery SRS shouldn't be affecting the way MtFs look for as long as they have their clothes on.  Hormones can have a significant impact on such an appearance, and even some MtFs are able to pull off a look even without/before using them.

In general, though, I'd rather not get into the business of saying what is beautiful and what is not.  MtFs tend to have more hurdles (physically and emotionally/mentally) to clear to get where they want to be, and them overcoming those challenges can be moving/beautiful, but I'd rather see women and men of all types as human beings (with potentially some interest as to their gender for sexual attraction purposes).  They can be beautiful, hideous, and anywhere between (which can be shaped by "uniqueness") on numerous physical and mental dimensions.  What is considered beautiful/hideous is subjective, and the relative values of each factor are also subjective.  Personally, I'm not particularly interested is using someone's physical appearance to judge them.  But even more than that, I'm not comfortable using the "trans" factor to judge what is beautiful and what is not (and it cuts both ways).  Besides, I'd think MtFs would rather think of themselves as being loved as women rather than transwomen.

[Kaelin]

And I guess there are boob jobs, too (in case hormones aren't cutting to the person's satisfaction).

So, that sentence notwithstanding...

[cynthialee]

Objectification of women, misogeny, misandry, transmisogeny, elieteism and ad hominem attacks.
This thread is fail.

[Little Dragon]

Objectification of ad hominem attacks.

Mmmmm sexy

[cynthialee]

/facepalm

[Little Dragon]

/facepalm

lol