Pronouns

[Crow]

In theory, I go by gender neutral pronouns (ze or singular they, depending on what people are more comfortable with... except people clearly seem to be more comfortable with neither). It's hard enough to get people to call me those online in communities with a heavily queer population, much less in real life in an overwhelmingly conservative area of the country where most people have never even heard of gender neutral pronouns, much less met someone who uses them.

So I have a bit of a catch 22-- I do NOT want to be called "she", but since people have a hard time with neutral pronouns, they just revert back to "she" by default, since that's what my body implies I must be. I don't particularly feel like "he" fits, either, but it is far preferable to "she". As much as I would love to go by gender neutral pronouns, it seems that in this place and time, it's unrealistic to expect the majority of the population to call me as such. (Though I do have a handful of people who do, and i infinitely appreciate their efforts.)

Would it be realistic for me to explain my pronouns as "call me he, unless you're extra awesome and willing to use gender neutral pronouns"? I think i would feel more comfortable asserting my pronouns if I'm not forcing people to learn a whole new piece of vocabulary. I'm fairly certain everyone with a fundamental knowledge of English is familiar with how "he" works. I figure if I introduce myself as he, I'll have enough people who call me he, enough who hang onto she, and the handful who use neutral pronouns, so it'll all balance out ultimately.

However, I absolutely do not pass as a guy, not even as a pre-everything transguy... probably because that's not really what I'm going for. I bind all of about twice a month and my clothing ranges from completely masculine to brightly colored gypsy skirts and everything in between. Even my name is clearly not masculine (I go by Diane, for heaven's sakes... or occassionally by Crow, which can go either way). Would anyone in their right minds actually conceed to calling me by male pronouns?

And then there's the ever-present issue of teaching that seems to come up whenever I try to sort out pronouns. I'm currently going to college to become a middle school teacher-- I do a lot of field experiences in actual middle schools, as well as volunteer/sometimes paid work in tutoring or childcare related areas. I would ultimately like to be out at work, though at the moment that's about the only place I actively hide my gender identity (there are a lot of people who I haven't specifically told, but if they asked I would tell them-- but in teaching, I'm hiding, at least for the time being). My education professors/classmates know, but that's about it in that section of my life. Students are an absolute NO, which kind of breaks my heart.

That being said, I would like to change this... I feel like it would be easier (not easy, but easier) using a male pronoun. Is this a crazy assumption? (I'm really not worried about the kids so much as their parents and my bosses/coworkers/etc. I can handle being questioned or even teased by middle schoolers... I can't handle being fired or the education department getting fed up with me and failing me for my field experiences.)

I'm a little (a lot) incoherent here of late, so I apologize if anything in (or all of) this post makes no sense. If you need clarification, just ask and I'll explain/rephrase.

Basically: How do you guys feel about gender neutral pronouns? Is it reasonable to go by male pronouns for convenience when one is clearly not a guy or even trying to pass as one (but is obviously not a girl, either, and cringes at being called "she")? How might such a person (i.e. ME) deal with all this in the context of classrooms/working with kids?

[confused]

hmm that's a kinda tough call . that's the thing with a gendrequeer , people more than often get confused about the whole thing . it totally makes sense to me what you feel ,as i've been thinking about it for some time myself (although i'm planning on full transition , but i still wanna go by neutral pronouns , eh it's complicated) , but like you said we have to be realistic ,so i figured (for me) i'd go by 'she' but then i thought i'd look ridiculous if i don't pass , so the best i have come up with is to just let it be and avoid harm until i get to a point where being called she wouldn't look out of place . because , i know that neutral pronouns aren't that much used in most places all around the world , so i figured i'll just get people confused but people i have to deal with in everyday life friends/coworkers if theyr not familiar with the neutral pronouns , i don't mind going by she , in fact it's something i wanted before i realized that there is a neutral gender identity
so i have no experience dealing with it from your side and in your location , but from what i understand you already look kinda androgynous so maybe it will work(?) idk tbh , but i hope you come to a solution
anyway , sorry i know i said a lot of useless stuff maybe but i hope any of it could help you make your decision

[Nero]

I think it's going to be hard for people. I mean, if you ask to be called he, people will assume you're transitioning. And even at that, non-passing trans men have a difficult time getting he. It seems to me that unless you look pretty maleish, people will have an equally hard (or even worse) time using male pronouns than neutral ones. At least with gender neutral, people might be able to get that you're genderqueer/androgyne. But if you have to explain that while you're not trans, you want male pronouns, it might be harder for people to wrap their head around.

[no_id]

When I first started my whole androgyne realisation spectacle I felt quite strongly about pronouns. There's no singular 'they' in my language and the closest you'll get is 'it' though then there's still the 'his/her'. It annoyed me, and every now and then I would even grr on the forum or in chat if someone called me by a gender specific pronoun. Now several years have passed and I don't mind anymore, because:

it seems that in this place and time, it's unrealistic to expect the majority of the population to call me as such.

because , i know that neutral pronouns aren't that much used in most places all around the world

You are right.
Technically there is no such thing as a gender neutral pronoun and there will not be until further genders apart from the binary are accepted and recognised which in my agenda isn't planned till a long-long time from now. So to get back to your questions D,

If you have people around you can request to use 'correct' pronouns then there's nothing to lose, but realise that a request for neutral pronouns will have to be accompanied by a lenghty androgyne explanation that a lot of people will not understand. That said; you'll probably have more luck to request those close to you to call you by male pronouns.

As for the otherworld; if you don't pass as a guy or androgynous then you will not be referred to with male pronouns. The only thing to be acheived is confusion through gender expression that would result in strangers calling you he or she based on their perception (like something else pointed out). That confusion is really just the only, and the highest level of success that an androgynous presenting individual can acheive at this point in time.

When it comes to a work/professional space then pronouns only work if you play the part. If you are female bodied and obviously not male in presentation and female the moment you open your mouth then you will be called by female pronouns. In other words: you are either male or female based on the part that fits. Don't get me wrong, I do understand your frustration and your desire, but I have to say that what you want to achieve is very likely not palpable and will likely just bring you in a much for uncomfortable position if you are headstrong in your attempts to achieve it. Lest not forget, a school is your professional workspace rotating around the academic and personal growth of young individuals as well as your own professional growth and in some cases individual. In a workspace  you will need to put your own values, interests, and individual calamities aside mostly and that includes your gender identity turmult. In other words; your fight for correct pronouns would have absolutely no place there since it revolves around your own personal desire and has absolutely no connection to what you were hired for.

I take a look at the transsexual boards every now and then and read about their experience in a work environment. It never seems easy for them to have co-workers and the like use correct pronouns at some point of their transition, but it gets easier once they have fully transitioned though even then people still slip up. I read a lot about those who change jobs at some point in time to be read as fully female/male and to avoid the above. Naturally 'fully transition' is the keyword here, it's how their claim for pronouns is deamed just by others and even then is hardly a walk in the park.

So, in the end my advice is likely not the one you were looking for but it's my honest answer; you will be referred to as she by the majority of individuals in this world and I'm not sure if fighting for the opposite will bring you more hail than harm. Hard as it may be, there are times where things need to be accepted based on a lack of recognition, understanding and a correct time and place.

[Crow]

Yeah, I... see where you're all coming from.

A big part of my issue is that there are a number of people who at least for the most part comprehend and accept my gender identity, but don't comprehend my pronouns. Online, probably around half of the people I regularly interact with use neutral pronouns for me, but in real life, I can only think of one person who consistently uses neutral pronouns for me-- yet there are a number of people who have had overall positive responses to my gender identity but... don't comprehend the pronouns. I've actually had a number tell me that I would be way easier to just call me "he," which is where this idea came from.

Obviously, a sizeable portion of the population is just going to call me "she" no matter what I say or do. Especially people who I don't know well enough/don't have time to explain my gender to-- but it would be rediculous of me to expect them to use the correct pronouns to begin with, if I haven't explained the situation to them. I know that. It would be lovely at least for the close friends/professors/etc. who know about my gender but can't wrap their heads around neutral pronouns to at least have something to call me something other than "she" though. So I guess the easiest answer to that is to simply give people I trust the options of calling me by male or neutral pronouns and hope for the best (and not worry so much about random people who barely know me).


...the professional space is by far the most confusing space, though, and the one I'm absolutely stuck in regards to. I find it highly ironic that I present as more consistently masculine in professional spaces than in any other part of my life, yet it's the place that I'm least likely to be referred to as anything other than "Ms." and "she." I try to keep a consistent clothing style when teaching/working with kids so as not to confuse my students or detract from my own ability to be an effective authority figure-- I pretty much always wear slacks, button-up shirts, and a tie. It's probably bout the only section of my life where my occassional skirt-wearing wouldn't crop up and interfere with my ability to hypothetically be taken seriously as a "guy." Yet somehow I find myself shoved in a distinctly "female" box in that same portion of my life. And I seem to be running in aimless circles around figuring out a solution to that.

[Sevan]

Ah pronouns....what a muckity mess.

I want to accept and use gender nuetral pronouns, but I can't even seem to really work with it!! And I'm gender queer!!! It just...I don't know. I've been trying for weeks and months to fit it into my own langauge and get my head around it and own it...but I don't like any of them.

That's the other issue....HOW many pronoun sets do we have!? I mean...eeks.

They also leave quite a bit to be desired. What do we say instead of Mr./Mrs./Ms.? What do we say instead of aunt/uncle? What about sir/ma'am?

I have, instead...tried to work with existing words. Using my name in place of pronouns, or when that doesn't work...just use "person" or personhood...somehow that's more comfortable.

I've got very open minded in-laws...but they basically refuse to even think about gender neutral pronouns. They just...don't like them. They don't want to use them, they don't want to think about it, they don't want to even try! Seems they'd rather I just be a boy. Personally I'm oppisite of you...I've grown accustomed to "she"...I've taken it on and owned it. It no longer has the "female" conitation to me..it's just how people refer to me and that's ok. I have one super awesome friend who's offered to use gender nuetral terms with me...thinking that I actually *want* them but just like...couldn't say so or some such...but again, it's use kinda makes me uncomfortable. I've got issues...I know. I can't explain WHY it makes me uncomfortable so I'll just leave it...

[Fenrir]

Personally, I agree with phx_rising about the pronouns deal. The whole ze/hir thing annoys me, it just sounds wrong. A nice one I heard once (from a sci-fi novel) was 'per', as in short for 'person', that was cool. Being called 'they' would be nice, but that's still usually a plural thing, so...
Overall I no longer mind 'she' too much. It used to make me twitch but I've got over it a bit now. 'He' would be awesome to get every now and then because I also don't physically pass at all. I got Sir'd once by a friend of mine after which he blinked and said "Oh yeah... I forgot you're a girl" which made me happy for days thereafter. So I'm sure getting 'he' sometimes IS possible so long as people get to know you long enough (maybe?)!
So yeah. Summary: don't really like the non-dictionary gender-neutral pronouns, 'he' would be awesome but isn't too likely to occur spontaneously, people find 'she' easier and I can live with that.

[Pica Pica]

How do you know if people are calling you he or she? Because surely if they are talking about you in the third person - you probably aren't there.
Post Merge: May 29, 2010, 09:41:52 AM
Also, if someone refers to me as 'he' - what is happening really? Because as far as I can work out, all that is happening is that someone has made a minor grammar error in referring to me as the wrong sex.

[Crow]

How do you know if people are calling you he or she? Because surely if they are talking about you in the third person - you probably aren't there.
Post Merge: May 29, 2010, 09:41:52 AM
Also, if someone refers to me as 'he' - what is happening really? Because as far as I can work out, all that is happening is that someone has made a minor grammar error in referring to me as the wrong sex.

Mostly when they're introducing me to other people and such, but you're right, most of the time third person pronouns are usually (at least theoretically) used when the person being referred to is not around.

Perhaps more the problem isn't the pronouns in and of themselves, but all the assumptions that go with them. There doesn't seem to BE a good solution.

I wish i could at least get people to stop calling me "girl" as if that's my nickname, even if they continue to use female pronouns for me, but I can't even seem to make that happen.

I don't know. It's all really frustrating.