No Third Way

[Tammy Hope]

Apparently it's becoming more obvious every day. There's not going to be a "third way"

Either I surrender (spiritual suicide) or I'm going to have to leave (though she won't be the one to tell me to go, lest - so she thinks - she get blamed for it).

I still think it's possible that if I do move out (which I almost did Sunday and most of my stuff is still there) she'll end up calling me back without conditions, but I have to be prepared for it to be permanent.

Anyway, if I drop out of sight here for a while you'll know why. I'll be reduced to public access computers for a while and the only one around blocks this board so I'll have to see you on Facebook if at all.

That's assuming I don't cave in, of course, which isn't impossible.

The thing is, she doesn't know what kind of bitch I'll be to live with if I do.

[Janet_Girl]

If it comes down to it, we will understand.  And I can keep tabs thru FB.

Hang tough, girl.

[Chrissty]

Laura,
I'm still going to pray that it's just a "storm in a teacup" for you both...

...but whatever you decide, I hope you eventually find the peace and hapiness you seek...



Chrissty

[Randi]

I am sorry to hear that Laura. I had an eerily similar conversation with mine just this morning. Our situation has it's ups and lots of downs but we are still able to talk about things after the emotional fog clears. Sometimes we just have to stick up for ourselves and let the chips fall where they will. Whatever you do I wish only the best for you & yours.

Randi

[Jasmine.m]

Good luck, Laura... :hugs:

[Kay]

Good luck Laura,
.
I hope Chrissty is right about the 'tempest in a teacup',
but regardless of how it goes, do remember to take care of yourself.
.
Later,
.
Kay

[Eva Marie]

Best of luck, Laura. Hope it works out.

[justmeinoz]

Good luck, I hope thinks work out so you can be happy.

[Sandy]

Good luck, Laura.

Regardless of how it turns out this time, it sounds like this is something that has to be addressed sometime.  Maybe now is better than later.  I really hope for the best and hope to see you soon.

-Sandy

[Tammy Hope]

^^^
That's what is so maddening. We veer right up to the precipice and I'm SURE the breaking point will come any day if not any hour then...she turns down the heat and we go days or even weeks without such drama and I think well, maybe we've gotten some equilibrium then out of nowhere we careen towards the cliff again.

Logically my instinct is to just go ahead and break it off if there's no hope for a really long term future (and whatever else waivers, she is always very firm - "I will NOT be married to a woman, and I can't just be friends after what we had") and release everyone from the drama.

But the counterargument is that the logistics of it would be insanely hard right now, and also ever how much time can pass without full-time drama is time the kids get to have us all under the same roof* and there's logic in the counter argument as well.

In any case, I greatly appreciate the good wishes.


*I recognize the fallacy of "staying together for the kids" when staying together means fighting every day. But we have a rather unique situation here.

Primarily in the fact that there's a real chance she would become very unstable if we split and not in a situation to be an effective mother (compounded by the fact that the boys don't see anything wrong with me and are of the opinion that she needs to adjust and tolerate my transition - which will but antagonism between them if i have to move)

the alternative of course is that she move and the boys live with me but that could very likely result in suicide as she is even more oriented towards her kids than to me. Also, the younger son is otherwise VERY attached to his mom. And he has some of her emotional issues as well.

So while, in the abstract, "staying together for the kids" is a false premise, in our case it has practical reality.

[tekla]

If you move out, how far are you going to move?  Will the temptation to go to Memphis or some larger city with more resources (and more opportunity) become a lure too strong to resist?

And there are legal issues, Mississippi still has pretty strong alimony laws in place (and I take it she does not work, so if you've been supporting her so far, you can count on supporting her just about forever), and everywhere has pretty hard-core child support (with strong enforcement measures) requirements.  Could you, either of you, afford any of that?

Who home-schools the kids if you are not there?  Can she really pull that off by herself?

[Tammy Hope]

All valid considerations under the heading of "logistics" or circumstances.

If you move out, how far are you going to move?  Will the temptation to go to Memphis or some larger city with more resources (and more opportunity) become a lure too strong to resist?

Initially, to my Mom's which is about 13 miles away. Eventually, when funds permit, someplace further. I have a standing offer from a friend of mine to move in with her in the Orlando area but I can't guess if that will still be there when it's practical for me to do.

And there are legal issues, Mississippi still has pretty strong alimony laws in place (and I take it she does not work, so if you've been supporting her so far, you can count on supporting her just about forever), and everywhere has pretty hard-core child support (with strong enforcement measures) requirements.  Could you, either of you, afford any of that?

MS also has a sound "no fault" divorce situation in which the court will ratify anything we mutually agree to. Child support is an issue in theory, but in practical terms, as long as I'm not setting up my own household, I'd fully expect to provide for them just as I do now. (assuming sufficient employment of course but that becomes a real issue even if I don't move if it's not there)

I wouldn't need the court to force me to do it.

Who home-schools the kids if you are not there?  Can she really pull that off by herself?

She can and has. The older is almost finished and the younger much prefers to work with her anyway. I just supervise and step in on very isolated tough situations. Also, the curriculum we use is heavily oriented towards self-directed studies. We've raised them to be independent learners as much as is practical.

Beyond that, I'd rather not discuss homeschooling as it tends to arose passions which are unsavory and which at a minimum would drive this thread into the ditch.

but your points are well taken.

[tekla]

Well whatever the two of you agree to, get it in writing, and get it notarized before anyone - or anything - moves anywhere.^*  Most courts see the person who moved out as 'abondonment' and that sets up some pretty serious legal issues.  And I know more than one person who found themselves sued for child support long after the fact when the issues of who pays for college tuition comes up (one of them had a daughter accepted at Stanford, any idea what that did to his finances?  Hint: he had to sell his house and move into a little apartment, which led directly to his second wife divorcing him, and if you don't think that wife #1 was popping the champagne open for that that then you've never seen divorce up close and personal California Style.).  Its a way to get some revenge (on her part, or on the part of her family acting in her interest**) and tie up so much money that you would find it all but impossible to ever transition, it may well end up that it would be all you could do just to keep up with the legal bills and be lucky to afford peanut butter and jelly to live on.

What seems amicable at first can often turn very bitter later when lots of other people start to give her advice, and she has all the cards in this one, particularly when she gets the venue, and its a rural/semi-rural country in Mississippi.  Is any court/child services deal in your area likely to give you custody of the kids when they have pictures of you dressed like that?  When they have records of all your posts and facebook pages, and blogs?  I doubt it.  It would be hard here in SF, in Mississippi I bet it would be impossible.

I say that because one of my best friends is a big-time divorce lawyer.  She only represents women, and her sole goal in her professional career (in which she has been wildly successful) is to gut ex-husbands like a fisherman guts a trout.  The woman with custody of the kids has ALL the cards in this deal.



* - and even that might not work, if she is unstable then any good lawyer can get it tossed out claiming that she was not competent to agree to it in the first place.  So that... the more ill she is, (or is seen to be) the more it works out in her favor.  A failed suicide attempt would make her very sympathetic to a judge or jury.  A successful suicide could make your kids wards of the court, and then the state would go after you for 100% support on the level they deem proper, which could be more than you're even making.  And failure to pay could land you in jail.

** - which would be the way the evil side of me would go, have her declared incompetent, have myself placed in a position of guardian or master, then go after you.

[kyril]

I'd like to second all of tekla's cautions. As awful as it is, the legal system and the people who work in it see you as the "man" in this situation, and it's pretty much set up to screw "men." Which means you. I've argued strenuously in other places on this board against the existence of systemic female privilege, but there is one system in which (cis) female privilege absolutely does exist, and that is in the area of family law. Women, at least ones who can be talked into getting lawyers, get everything. Men's needs are not considered at all - they're not even worried about leaving you enough money to get yourself to and from work every day and keep your job. The "man" being punished for having sperm is more important than the kids actually being supported.

Do not, do not, do not leave that house until your legal agreement is finalized. Don't leave on the promise that you'll make arrangements at a later date - it's good that the state will ratify whatever you agree to, but that only works if you can agree to something reasonable, and if you leave ("abandon") them, she's not obligated to agree to something reasonable. She can take it to court.

So stick it out and handle the legal stuff. If the situation becomes truly intolerable for her, she can leave - you stay right there with your kids.

[Tammy Hope]

this is somewhat new information.

I get that it's good to have a written agreement early, but I hadn't been aware that a mutually agreed upon move would constitute abandonment assuming i continued to provide support.

food for thought.

Post Merge: May 22, 2010, 01:15:37 PM
To follow up, would it then follow that if I responded to her pressure by going back to full-on transition and she got mad and either left or forced me out (literally, as in changing the locks while I was gone or something) that this would shift that burden to her?
(not thinking of support, per se, but just to undermine any accusation of abandonment)

[kyril]

Probably, yes. If she leaves or forces you out, the only way she can spin that to her advantage is if she alleges abuse (be absolutely certain that nothing you do in the coming months could even remotely be interpreted as abuse - if you're fighting, do not touch her, even with the intent to comfort or reassure her. Don't raise your voice if you can help it. Be the model of restraint and self-control and let her be the unreasonable one if she wants to be.)

Basically, you want your actions to show that you want to continue the relationship, that you're putting forth a good-faith effort to be there for your family as a positive presence, and that your wife is the one who is unable to cope with the situation (of you being trans). Being trans is itself likely to be unsympathetic, so everything else about you should be as sympathetic as possible. And that absolutely means not leaving, even if it feels like the considerate thing to do. Stand your ground and be yourself (or an idealized, perfect version thereof) and let her react to that as she will.

[BunnyBee]

Good luck, Laura.  However it goes and whatever you decide, I hope you find a way to happiness.

[Tammy Hope]

one thing in my favor is that both boys are capeable of honestly saying that she has attacked me and arguments only start when she initiates the drama.

they've said so to both of us n several occasions.

[Evan]

I'm not sure about the back story on this... but would she be open to counseling? or what about a post-nuptial agreement? from what I could find it's supported by Mississippi law

[Tammy Hope]

she has brought up the idea of specifying in writing what we were agreeing to do after a split...

As for counseling, we talk about it but when the moment arrives she tends to "blink" - which makes it tricky because sometimes we have the money and sometimes we don't so we have to hit the window of opportunity.

The problem she has with counseling, i suspect, is that she fears that the ultimate goal of counseling is to get her to "learn to accept" me - which she adamantly doesn't want to even consider doing.

Not sure that she's right about that being the goal - but I'm pretty sure that's what she's afraid the goal is.