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FTM: Bi? Gay?

Started by accord03, May 21, 2010, 07:19:27 AM

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VampyreAri

Is a woman a woman because she has a vagina? Or is it because she lacks a penis? Is a man a man because he has a penis? Or is it because he lacks a vagina? The answer, in truth, is neither. A woman is a woman because she believes herself to be so. A man is a man because he believes himself to be so. And one who is something else is something else because they believe themselves to be so. You are what you are, not because of what's between your legs, but because of what you believe yourself to be.

Quote from: accord03 on May 21, 2010, 07:19:27 AM
I know gender and sexuality is different. And I don't understand how some FTM can be bi or gay? If you were attracted to males, wouldnt of you just stayed female.

If you are male and you like males as a male, why would you 'stay female'? You're not female to begin with. There's a big difference between liking guys as a guy and liking guys as a girl. Is a gay male the same thing as a straight female simply because they both are sexually attracted to men? No, they're not the same.

Quote from: accord03 on May 21, 2010, 07:30:40 AM
So, FTM who are bi or gay is attracted to two guys having sex? And not doing the straight way like pussy and penis?

I'm a gay FtM and I'm not attracted to 'two guys having sex' specifically as you put it, but rather I'm attracted to males. It's not just about the sex, it's about the physical and emotional attraction. Some FtMs, like myself, want their female anatomy to have nothing to do with sex for them, instead having their intercourse in other ways or with other tools. But some FtMs ARE comfortable with vaginal sex. But just because there's a penis and a vagina involved, doesn't mean it's 'straight' sex. It's still just as gay. Because a gay FtM is as male as their partner. And male + male = gay.

Quote from: accord03 on May 21, 2010, 08:00:56 AM
Yeah, I don't like gay sex. I think it's gross and I would never be friend a homosexual cause lesbians are butchy and gays are abnormal.

Bruce Bagemihl's research shows that homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1500 species and is more than well documented for 500 of them. So... just curious but... how are gays abnormal? Homosexuality is quite natural, actually. Oh, and by the way? One of the most effeminate people I know is a lesbian. Not 'butchy' at all.

Stereotypes are bad. So is homophobia. :( Love and let love, man. Love and let love.
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Arch

QuoteA gay FtM, like myself, isn't attracted to 'two guys having sex' specifically as you put it, but rather is attracted to males. It's not about the sex, it's about the physical and emotional attraction.

Uh, I have to say that FOR ME, the sex is a significant part of my attraction to men.

And while I'm here, I'm going to go all mod and ask that people dial it down a notch. No heated accusations, please. Let's keep it civil.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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VampyreAri

Quote from: Arch on May 21, 2010, 03:35:45 PM
Uh, I have to say that FOR ME, the sex is a significant part of my attraction to men.

Should've phrased that better in retrospect. Moreso... not about the manner in which the sex happens?
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Arch

Quote from: MihaelKai on May 21, 2010, 03:37:35 PM
Should've phrased that better in retrospect.

Keep trying. :D

No, seriously, it can be hard to use words to describe feelings. That's why I like "I" statements. At least then I don't have to worry about the one person (or two or three or a thousand) who don't fit into my description; and if I'm inaccurate, I'm only inaccurate about me.

I have a better sense now of what you meant, but I'm still a little iffy. This is interesting, though. Care to keep going? Are you referring to your own feelings about your own anatomy, or something?
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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sneakersjay

Quote from: M.Grimm on May 21, 2010, 01:47:15 PM
Forcing myself to stay female-bodied simply because I am attracted to males is what caused me to be trapped in a body I hate for so many years. If anything, it makes it worse because straight males are attracted to the elements of my body that I despise the most. Relationships are immaterial; my body is wrong. That is the point.

That said, I have no time to waste with homophobes. If two consenting adults are having sex, it's not yours nor anyone else's business. It in no way threatens you. Acting as if it is something you must concern yourself with is idiotic. Grow up and learn how to keep your nose out of other people's personal lives.

Thank you.


Jay

And PS to the original poster: not all ftms are guys with a vag.


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VampyreAri

Quote from: Arch on May 21, 2010, 03:49:20 PM
I have a better sense now of what you meant, but I'm still a little iffy. This is interesting, though. Care to keep going? Are you referring to your own feelings about your own anatomy, or something?

Hrm... Nothing to do with anatomy, really... Just that... it's not just about 'two guys having sex' but rather... 'being with a male as a male'? Whether that be in a sexual context or otherwise? I dunno. It's hard to explain. :laugh: Maybe I'm just nuts.
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zombiesarepeaceful

"staying female" has nothing to do with who we're attracted to. yeah, it would be a hell of alot easier to do that and be with a guy. Or even to be with a girl, cause I'm here to tell ya that being with a girl while transitioning is a mindscrew for most women, unless they're open minded. But try being with someone, a guy or girl or whatever, and knowing in the back of your mind that you're not screwing them with the right parts. That its all wrong. And if you're trans, you should know the hell it is to go about your day to day life in the wrong gender. I'm pansexual, so I don't consider gender in a person that I'm attracted to. But since I'm with a woman, its a straight relationship. If i were witha  man, it would be gay.

I know for certain that my gf doesn't see me as a "man with a vag". If she did, I wouldn't be with her. It took trusting her immensely to even let her down there. I have a dick. That's that. She reminds me constantly that I'm just a boy to her. I am to me for sure, but I worry about confusing my partners. Cause I've had exs break down over that kind of stuff.

In the end, the chances of having less or more potential relationships has no impact on whether or not we transition. Honestly I said I'd rather stay single than not transition for my partner. I've been there, done that. It wasn't worth it to live for someone else.

If I wantedto be mean I could say that you and your girl being together is gay but i'm not that disrespectful. You're a homophobe and I really don't undersatnd why.

If you're ftm, referring to us in such a disrepsectful way is just....low.
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Arch

Quote from: MihaelKai on May 21, 2010, 03:59:46 PM
Hrm... Nothing to do with anatomy, really... Just that... it's not just about 'two guys having sex' but rather... 'being with a male as a male'? Whether that be in a sexual context or otherwise? I dunno. It's hard to explain. :laugh: Maybe I'm just nuts.

No, this helps enormously. Thank you. So it's not so much that "it' isn't about sex; it's more that "it" isn't necessarily about sex or solely about sex--but sex can be a part of it. If that's the case, it sounds like what I was claiming for myself. (I originally mistyped "myself" as "myelf" and wondered whether that were more accurate for the pointy-eared crowd!)

Oh, boy. Myelf, yourelf, himelf, herelf. Ourelves. Yourelves. Themelves.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Luc

Okay... I don't really feel like reading the myriad responses to the original poster, particularly because I'm so perplexed by the OP's question in the first place.

So here's what I'm thinking: if you think that an FtM who is attracted to men should not transition, but rather remain a "female" so as to have better luck with men, then why shouldn't lesbians and gays simply transition in order to be straight? Wouldn't it make things so much easier?

This is a clear-cut case of homophobia. Please, dude... wake up.

SD
"If you want to criticize my methods, fine. But you can keep your snide remarks to yourself, and while you're at it, stop criticizing my methods!"

Check out my blog at http://hormonaldivide.blogspot.com
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kyril

Quote from: M.Grimm on May 21, 2010, 01:47:15 PM
Forcing myself to stay female-bodied simply because I am attracted to males is what caused me to be trapped in a body I hate for so many years. If anything, it makes it worse because straight males are attracted to the elements of my body that I despise the most. Relationships are immaterial; my body is wrong. That is the point.

That said, I have no time to waste with homophobes. If two consenting adults are having sex, it's not yours nor anyone else's business. It in no way threatens you. Acting as if it is something you must concern yourself with is idiotic. Grow up and learn how to keep your nose out of other people's personal lives.
This.

I'm gay. I'm out. I'm proud. I make no apologies. I like men - I like being one, and I like being with one. If you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with you. Because it's that attitude among the online FTM community when I was first doing research in the '90s that kept me in the closet hating myself.

I've finally killed off my internalized homophobia and neither you nor anyone else will shame me into letting it back into my life.


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VampyreAri

Quote from: Arch on May 21, 2010, 04:05:37 PM
(I originally mistyped "myself" as "myelf" and wondered whether that were more accurate for the pointy-eared crowd!)

Oh, boy. Myelf, yourelf, himelf, herelf. Ourelves. Yourelves. Themelves.

Hah! Myelf! :laugh: I didn't know that you could conjugate elf. Bravo, sir!
And yay! Glad I could explain myself more properly for ya. :)
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kyril

Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on May 21, 2010, 04:04:36 PM
"staying female" has nothing to do with who we're attracted to.
We say this a lot, but the truth is...it kind of does. I'm wired for gay relationships - for being with guys as a guy. I'm constitutionally incapable of having a 'normal' heterosexual relationship. I don't have what straight guys want. And they don't have what I want.

In bed, sure, it can work out, but out of bed...I need an equal partner and a symmetrical, male-male relationship. Straight guys need that male/female, complementary, yin/yang thing. It's not the same. I'm not just gay because I like dick - I'm gay because I like gay relationships.


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Inkwe Mupkins

R u guys talking to me cause iv never dated any one and the man with a vag thing is what someone said that i would be. I not saying that ftm's are male with vags im just saying that the ppl in my community think that way and thats what makes me uneasy about tellin ppl i like females. I have nothing against gays its just that all my friends tell me that if i say i like girls they wont be friends with me anymore. i have absolutly nothing wrong with gays but i thought i was homophopic beacuse i didnt want to lose all my friends if they see me as one so i am afraid that i am one. i could see myself in a relationship with a gay male or gay female because i dont think straight ppl would be attracted to me at least not in this town. i am defintly trans but ppl in my community dont see a ftm as male or mtf as female, which can be hard at times.
Islam means peace.
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Vancha

All I'm going to say is that we, as trans people, have been shunned by society for many years in the past and still are in the present.  Many people look down on us, many friends and family members would abandon us knowing our trans status, and many people think we are "unnatural" and "disgusting".  Knowing that, we should be respectful of everyone who, like us, has been unfairly shunned by society because of their preferences and their feelings.  I find homophobia highly insulting, and it hits far too close to home.  Many trans people are straight, yes, but in the 1970s, gay people were looked down upon as we are today, although we still don't suffer at society's hand the way they did.  In fact, they put down the foundation for a more tolerant and accepting society.  Without the gay community, we would surely be accepted in society even less.  We live in a large and multifaceted world, and every individual has their own story.  Why be so concerned about what other people are feeling, when their feelings don't hurt anyone?  In my opinion, a trans person being homophobic is absolutely unacceptable, because there is a lot of transphobia in our world, and believe me, we are not that different after all.

After all, we are both in search of truth.  Homosexuals, just like transsexuals, are simply seeking personal integrity and truth.  That is one of the bravest and most commendable of things.
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Inkwe Mupkins

so am i homophopic? i like gays especially the ones on Will and Grace, its a good show, i have nothing against gays and what they do has nothing to do with me but i see myself as a straight male but society or my town would view me as a lesbo. I am afraid everyone will abandoned me and im having pretty scary feelings that in societies terms i might be lesbian, so i am afraid that i might be gay out of fear of losing everyone around me. My mom doesnt like the fact that im trans but she deals with it and if i told her i liked females she might just kick me out of the house. i thought if u were afraid to be gay then that was homophopic cause earlier the definiton was fear of gays or somethin like that. If all men were gay it be a nice world and i dont think there'd be as much drama, like if they replaced all women so u only had straight and gay men.
Islam means peace.
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Arch

Quote from: mcalistershaun on May 21, 2010, 07:38:43 PM
so am i homophopic?

Doesn't sound to me like you're homophobic; you just want to be seen as you should be seen, yes?

Post Merge: May 21, 2010, 05:57:17 PM

Quote from: kyril on May 21, 2010, 04:39:48 PM
Because it's that attitude among the online FTM community when I was first doing research in the '90s that kept me in the closet hating myself.

Not just the FTM community but the professional community. When I first started researching all of this, I was reading that you wouldn't be allowed to transition if you were an FTM attracted to other men. Some of the literature I was reading was already out of date, but I didn't know that until later. Considering that the professional community and its transition requirements were inherently homophobic, I'm not so surprised that some FTM communities produced by that environment were homophobic.

Post Merge: May 21, 2010, 06:58:18 PM

Quote from: Sebastien on May 21, 2010, 04:09:53 PMSo here's what I'm thinking: if you think that an FtM who is attracted to men should not transition, but rather remain a "female" so as to have better luck with men, then why shouldn't lesbians and gays simply transition in order to be straight? Wouldn't it make things so much easier?

Your logic is impeccable.

Post Merge: May 21, 2010, 08:03:31 PM

Quote from: MihaelKai on May 21, 2010, 04:44:32 PM
Hah! Myelf! :laugh: I didn't know that you could conjugate elf. Bravo, sir!

Conjugation is one of my favorite pastimes. >:-)

Hmm. Technically, "elf" is not a verb. I elf, you elf, he/she/it elves...
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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KaleisGood4U

I can only relate to it as someone viewed as a lesbian right now.  I like straight women.  I wouldn't be content with a lesbian.  She'd physically appreciate me for something I feel so disconnected from.  It would almost be like an amputee fetishist being crazed over me for a missing arm, but on some level, maybe more offensive.  They're enjoying something that isn't a part of me, and in that sense, it's more like being sexually attracted to a diseased limb, and in that sense, it's almost offensive.

If this doesn't make sense, disregard.
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Inkwe Mupkins

now that i think of it i could be bi cause idk if im attracted to females all i know is that when i see a half naked female i get somewhat turned on but if there was someone just like Sean Hayes thats my type of person he plays Jack McFarland in Will and Grace, i like ppl that are hilarious and share the same interests, like knitting, planting flowers, watching horror films, but they gotta be hilarious and i think all gay guys have a good sense of humor maybe im a gay guy idk my sexuality is still in the making, ive never dated anyone.
Islam means peace.
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Linus

Quote from: Arch on May 21, 2010, 08:53:39 PM

Not just the FTM community but the professional community. When I first started researching all of this, I was reading that you wouldn't be allowed to transition if you were an FTM attracted to other men. Some of the literature I was reading was already out of date, but I didn't know that until later. Considering that the professional community and its transition requirements were inherently homophobic, I'm not so surprised that some FTM communities produced by that environment were homophobic.

I suspect that a lot of this is due to what the medical and psychiatric community expects. I've met very "flaming" FTMs who were in guys (FTM or cis-gendered) as well as very straight guys as well.  In order for some of the FTMs who didn't fit into the restrictive medical/psychiatric boxes to get care, they've had to lie. It seems harsh that someone is forced to go from one life lie to another just to get treatment or acceptance, even within our own community.

For me, as long as someone is living true to their heart and soul and is happy with that, then that is all that matters. What someone does in bed is their own thing -- just ensure you have safe fun  >:-)
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Evan

Any member of a minority group becoming intolerant of certain internal factions is I guess just another step in social evolution. Shows how far we've come, and maybe indicates we overshot the mark a bit..


Quote from: mcalistershaun on May 21, 2010, 07:38:43 PM
so am i homophopic? i like gays especially the ones on Will and Grace, its a good show, i have nothing against gays and what they do has nothing to do with me but i see myself as a straight male but society or my town would view me as a lesbo. I am afraid everyone will abandoned me and im having pretty scary feelings that in societies terms i might be lesbian, so i am afraid that i might be gay out of fear of losing everyone around me. My mom doesnt like the fact that im trans but she deals with it and if i told her i liked females she might just kick me out of the house. i thought if u were afraid to be gay then that was homophopic cause earlier the definiton was fear of gays or somethin like that. If all men were gay it be a nice world and i dont think there'd be as much drama, like if they replaced all women so u only had straight and gay men.


seems like you wouldn't win either way here.. either your community will see you as female and a lesbian if you're with a woman, or male and gay if you're with a man. either way you'd be gay, or if you like both, at least bisexual which many consider to be on the same level. as long as you can become comfortable with who you know yourself to be, who cares what other people think? are they living your life? if they're not, then why do you have to live your life to make them happy?
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