how to be sure that you are mtf

[Jenna Lynne]

Transsexuals generally cross dress because they have an inner identity that is opposite of their birth gender.  Generally cross dressing is not an erotic experience for them, but a way to feel normal.

Oops ... I don't fit into any of the baskets (again). Not criticizing your post, Sandy, but I want to mention a couple of things.

First, the clinical understanding of transgender psychology is still at a fairly early stage, in my opinion. There's a lot that the professional community still doesn't know, and misunderstandings still crop up. So while these guidelines are useful, they're not absolute.

Second, if we were to draw a histogram of people's transgender feelings in various areas, we would surely find some humps in the diagrams, not an even spread, but there would always be people whose feelings were sloshing around in the valleys between the humps.

In my case, I identify as female AND it's an erotic experience.

*** Jenna ***

[lilacwoman]

so I took a poll on my other forum and among the LGBT people I go to conferences with.
I asked do women have penises.  Big NO!
I asked the women would they like a penis? Big NO!
I asked why would a person claim to be transexual but still keep and use a penis. He isn't TS!

It doesn't really matter unless the medics get a hold of the idea that there is no real need for sex chnage and ban the whole penis cutting business.

[Jenna Lynne]

so I took a poll on my other forum and among the LGBT people I go to conferences with.
I asked do women have penises.  Big NO!
I asked the women would they like a penis? Big NO!
I asked why would a person claim to be transexual but still keep and use a penis. He isn't TS!

That's not very interesting information, I'm afraid. For starters, these people don't know me, so nothing that they might think can possibly apply to me. Also, you seem to be implying that "TS" is a category with sharp boundaries. It's not. Sorry -- the real world is just plain messy. You may as well get used to it.

*** Jenna ***

[Sinnyo]

Desperately trying to ignore...

I've generally agreed with most of the topic, and ƃuıxǝʌ in particular lately. Splitting fine hairs over "transgender" and "transsexual" is not going to help anyone's personal decision. I'm not even sure that my personal definition of "transsexual", as someone who's undergoing or has undergone physical change towards their inner gender, matches yours. Certainly not Lilacwoman's.. strict rulings.

I believe absolutely in my own take on the topic. I have to because it lends me certainty. One could say that I'm twisting medical procedures and ideas about transition to fit my needs, and I would agree. It helps me sleep at night, knowing that I can be a woman but that I don't need anyone else to define womanhood for me.

[K8]

I identified as transgendered because I didn't know if I was a cross-dresser, genderqueer, genderfluid, gender confused, or just weird.  Once I started my journey toward presenting female to the world, it became evident to me that I am transsexual.  To me, the words are different – transgender being much broader and more inclusive than transsexual – but that's just my interpretation and may not be yours.

Could I have lived with my penis?  Yes.  Could I have been happy?  Yes, I was wonderfully happy living as a woman pre-op.  Am I happier with a vagina?  You bet your sweet bippy.

*Kate puts on her moderator hat*  

Just a note of warning here:  Susan's Place does not recognize a hierarchy of transsexualism or ->-bleeped-<-.  Rule 10: Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

• Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
• Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

[/ ]  *Kate removes her moderator hat*

- Kate

[Nigella]

To me, the words are different – transgender being much broader and more inclusive than transsexual – but that's just my interpretation and may not be yours.

I have to agree with kate, primarily the word Transgender is an umbrella word encompassing ALL   whereas Transsexual is specific to those who undergo gender reassignment surgery and fully transition. This is not to knock those who are pre op or to put on a pedestal those who are post op. I have been pre op and will soon be post op. What we have to understand is the variance within those who are transgender. These are the definitions and people make what they like of them but the words are used technically as above.

At the end of the day its not worth our breaths fighting over semantics we have bigger battles to fight and win.

Stardust 

[My Name Is Ellie]

Our current medical/surgical abilities are not yet up to scratch - there is no way to give yourself a functional vagina.

Therefore, any judgement of gender based on who wants / does not want to remove their penis is not a certainty. Rather, it just shows who would be happy having the current surgery available or who would rather have an actual vagina. I am sure there are a lot of would-be-transsexuals who are merely waiting for a better surgery. I myself am interested in where stem cell research will take us.

All the same, personally I believe gender is not a clear cut thing. I happen to find small penises cute and attractive, and sometimes girly (call me weird if you will) - however my balls grotesque me and I definately should have breasts. I know I am female but I would not be devastated if the only thing I had to keep was my penis. I hate the idea of sticking it inside people, and hate ejaculation, and would rather have female orgasms -- therefore hormones would be perfect for me -- but again everybody is different and it all boils down to personal views and whatnot.

I'm not sure if that makes sense but hey.

What I am trying to say is you can still be transgender without going the whole nine yards.

[Nigella]

Again, where does this leave the trans guys?

In the same place for those undergoing gender reassignment surgery as mtf. Although more complicated than mtf, ftm's do undergo various surgeries to allow themselves to be as fully men as current surgery can. Christine Jorgensen had just her penis removed and had no vaginal cavity made because that was the current state of surgery for a sex change at the time. That did not make her any less a woman. I do find it odd that we use semantics to cause arguments instead of helping one another to be comfortable with who they are. If someone wants to call themselves transsexual who is pre op then fine. Its no concern of mine, however when we slate one another that is my concern. As in any kind of debate there will always be two, three, four of more opinions. At the end of the day that's all they are opinions. What really matters here is the person. If the person has reached a place of happiness and can live with themselves as they are better than they were, then that's what really counts.

However for me I had to have reassignment surgery. I don't call myself trans anything I call myself a woman and people recognise and see that. For me that was my goal.

Stardust 

[K8]

Our current medical/surgical abilities are not yet up to scratch - there is no way to give yourself a functional vagina.

I'm not sure what you mean, Ellie.  My vagina is fully functional.  It is not connected to a cervix, uterus, and ovaries, but the vagina itself is functional.  When I showed it to a GG friend, she said: "It looks real."  I said that it is real.  It wasn't factory-installed, but it's real.  So I'm not sure of your meaning.

- Kate

[My Name Is Ellie]

Without meaning to sound offensive, there is no way to recreate the full female reproductive system. Sorry, bad wording from my part.

[BunnyBee]

I refuse to beleive they are transsexual...they may be trans something but as girls don't have penises and they have no plans to lose theire then by definition they ain't transsexual.

This is an argument of semantics about words for which there has been no consensus about their meaning, so it is utter silliness in my opinion.  Might as well let people label themselves in whatever way they feel fits, because these labels are meaninless anyway.

Like after SRS I won't want anything to do with the word transsexual because once I've crossed the divide, the prefix trans doesn't fit anymore.  Just call me "woman" thank you.  In fact, just call me woman now .

Take the label argument out and you have an assertion that those that need surgery have a different condition than those that don't, and I think that is a legitimate debate you could have, that is if you want to read a lot of bitching and see people's feelings get hurt.  I just don't see how that is constructive either, especially because in the end this stuff only matters in some contexts and then it's even more incendiary because consequences are attached.

[Nigella]

As I said before, the only person who gets decide how they identify is the individual in question.
Not you or I.

If you read my post that's what I said,

Stardust

[Nigella]

This is an argument of semantics about words for which there has been no consensus about their meaning, so it is utter silliness in my opinion.  Might as well let people label themselves in whatever way they feel fits, because these labels are meaninless anyway.

Like after SRS I won't want anything to do with the word transsexual because once I've crossed the divide, the prefix trans doesn't fit anymore.  Just call me "woman" thank you.  In fact, just call me woman now .

Take the label argument out and you have an assertion that those that need surgery have a different condition than those that don't, and I think that is a legitimate debate you could have, that is if you want to read a lot of bitching and see people's feelings get hurt.  I just don't see how that is constructive either, especially because in the end this stuff only matters in some contexts and then it's even more incendiary because consequences are attached.

That's what I said and I agree, I think some people read into things more than has been written.

Stardust

[Nigella]

Well if we are all saying the same thing in a different way then I'm going to say adjure.

Stardust

[BunnyBee]

Which would be like claiming that choosing to have chemo over surgery means that you can't call yourself a cancer patient.

I see both sides of the argument and since there isn't a way to prove either side, it isn't very meaningful and, until there is more info, there will be no end to it.  It's the trans version of the abortion debate.

[Nigella]

I think you mean adieu?

No I meant adjure, "to make an earnest appeal to somebody."

Stardust

[Asfsd4214]

The problem here is people wanting their cake and eating it too, and no I'm not referring to what you think.

I'm referring to how some people here want diversity, want inclusion, but still want it by simply throwing themselves into categories they don't belong in to make it more inclusive.

You can be whatever you want to be, whatever that is, but either accept that there are terms with a specific meaning, or don't use them.

Wanting to use them but change them just makes things really really confusing. 

Ok so.... a woman can have and want a penis, and presumably vice versa, a woman also presumably can look then in general however they want and still be a woman.

In other words you've reduced the gender terms into being "I'm whatever I say I am". And once you get to being that degree of vague. Why not just not use any terms at all and label yourself with "I am me".

Without meaning to sound offensive, there is no way to recreate the full female reproductive system. Sorry, bad wording from my part.

No there isn't, but they can get a LOT closer than doing nothing at all.

To be honest, these terminology arguments seem really REALLY stupid to me.


TERMINOLOGY IS NOT DEFINED BY YOU FOR EVERYONE, IT IS DEFINED BY YOU FOR YOU, AND BY EVERYONE AS A WHOLE, FOR SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.

That's it, the end, that's how terminology works.

Arguing stuff like "no it doesn't mean that it means what I say it means" is so intangible and pointless, why do it?

It's about as intangible and pointless as the vague meanings many here want virtually every gender related term to be.

[Nigella]

What do you adjure?

To you, I appeal to you to not keep getting at me, you don't know me and I don't want to know you. (final adjure). Sorry, perhaps I was being a little obtuse.

Stardust

[K8]

This was the original post on this thread:

how do you know that you are a male to female transsexual and not a crossdresser, a transgender or an androgyne? how do you know that you don't make a mistake? how do you know that you really are a female inside a male body? and how do you know that your motivation for transition is the "right" one. i hope these questions don't sound offensive, because i don't mean it offensive. i really want to know how (or maybe why) you are sure that you are a mtf.

I feel these are legitimate questions.  If you would like to address lucaluca's questions, let's carry on the discussion.  Otherwise this thread has run its course and will be ended.

- Kate

[Alyssa M.]

This is an argument of semantics about words for which there has been no consensus about their meaning, so it is utter silliness in my opinion.  Might as well let people label themselves in whatever way they feel fits, because these labels are meaningless anyway.

Indeed.

What I've said from the start is that the question really doesn't matter -- and yet it seems to matter so much to so many of us. The whole point of semantic arguments often is about reassuring oneself that one belongs. In the case of someone who is struggling with the decision to transition, the stakes seem really high. Maybe they really are, but even they are, you can never answer the OP's question with any certainty, except by transitioning and seeing how it works.

I detect a mean streak of classism in the whole surgery debate. What about those who can't afford it, and who never will be able to? Are they somehow less legitimate because they choose to live their lives? I should hope not. I should hope people would understand that different circumstances can influence what one values, and celebrate those who can't get surgery but live vibrant lives as women nonetheless.

The bottom line is this: unless I'm having sex with you, what's between my legs is none of your damned business. Don't you dare judge me based on that, and don't you dare ask. I'll be damned if I'm going to let another trans woman tell me who I am. I've gotten enough of that from the rest of society. You should know better.

Notice I haven't said anything about my desire for surgery, my self-identification, what particular kinds of dysphoria I might experience, etc. That's intentional. As I said -- it's none of your business, especially if you plan to use my answers to decide whether I'm a legitimate woman.

Kate -- I truly appreciate your actions as moderator (here and in general). I think that the argument is quite closely related to the OP's question, for the reasons I mentioned. So I'm not sure that the OP's question can be addressed without this kind of inflammatory argument. Whether that means the thread should be closed is your business, not mine.