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The different layers/filters/options/things...(you'll see. just click)

Started by Sevan, May 28, 2010, 08:53:22 PM

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Sevan

I've been thinking and working on a few different topics I'd like to start here but since I've gone on T I've gotten really stinkin quiet. Turns out...I seemed to blather on and on and on (not really saying much of any content...but doing alot of *talking*) so I didn't have to REALLY listen to myself and my own thoughts.... I digress.

I've been thinking about transition and how it kind of...marks us in some way. I'm not sure what word to use...I tried a few different words and none are fitting as well as I'd like. Hmm.

The way I see it we have four ways we can alter ourselves. I view them from the outside-in.

First would be what do we put *on* our bodies. Clothes we choose, how to wear our hair, what make up (or lack of..) we choose, facial hair or none (if we have that as a choice...) ect.

Secould would be top surgery options. Adding breasts or removing them.

Third would be a miriad of SRS options

Fourth would be the most internal-hormones. Granted, hormones can have a great number of outward reactions...but for *me* personally I've found the greatest effect I've had from hormones is mentally.

So with these layers in mind...what appeals to you (if anything) as an androgyn. And why? What balance do you hope to strike?

I'll go first! So I'm a female bodied person and I'm on testosterone. I thought I'd want assorted surgeries...but I'm finding that the balance of being chemically male (my T is fully male, and my E is too.) and a female body...I've found balance in that. I'd like smaller breasts, hell..I NEED smaller breasts...thanks to T they are shrinking though not noticably...

I guess in addition to this...if you look at it more as "what do you want to do to find comfort in skin?" vs. Who are you and what label do you fall into? That may be contriversial, or insulting though I PROMISE that's not my purpose here...Just thinking out loud.
I'm also the spouse to the fabulous Mrs. Cynthialee.


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Carl E. Shy

My transition was/is pretty mild. I already have a gender-neutral facial structure. Over the years I've tried to find clothes that say "this could be for a guy, or it could be for a girl" before I even put it on. My hair is cut in a style that is easily adjustable for feminine or masculine qualities, just above my shoulders (it's straight, and cut kind of like a free-flowing boy's shag). My voice, luckily, isn't that high, and my boobs aren't that big (maybe a B, if that), so I haven't really been thinking about surgery or T. Sometimes I wish I could grow facial hair, but my partner tries to convince me all the time that I don't really want it. :P

Internally, I tend to make lifestyle decisions that won't haunt my andro-self. For me, that means decisions I can live with when I'm feeling "girly" and when I'm feeling more like a man. I tend to change almost every day it seems, so having the flexibility is something I strive for.

I think that's what it ultimately comes down to for most andros. Really good flexibility. Because usually when you go one way or the other, drastically, it's either irreversible or very hard to change back.
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Fenrir

So, the basic question is... what do you want to do to make your body fit? (Yay for coherence!)  ;)
Well, this is a subject I've been thinking on a lot lately, and you beat me to it on posting a topic about it.
I reckon clothing etc. (the first layer) is the main thing I'm sure of. After all, this surface stuff can be changed whenever you like, so there's no pressure of "DECIDE HOW YOU WILL BE FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE" which means I can actually think calmly on the subject, experiment a bit and find the right balance. In this layer, I present pretty masculinely, apart from my hair which I'm too vain to let go. I kid myself it looks masculine, anyway. :P
To the second layer! The idea of surgery scares me (a lot), but... I almost definitely need top surgery. I wish I was small enough for peri because I'm not sure about the whole losing sensation/scarring gig, but, fact is, I'm not. By a long way. Yay. I wish there was some way I could just have a perfect, smooth chest without all of this.
Third layer: SRS? No.
As for the fourth, hormones? That one's been causing me a lot of hassle lately. I'm not on anything yet, by the way. There are some changes I want, and a couple I'm not sure I would, but the effects vary a lot for people so I wouldn't even be able to be sure unless I actually just bit the bullet and went for it. At the moment I've resolved to see how good I can make my body feel through just getting fit, but that's not working too well so far (massive thighs of mostly muscle), so...
I suppose one of my problems is a lot of the things I'd want are to do with bone structure, so I can't have them (taller, no hips, etc. etc.) Darn you, biology!  :P

Post Merge: May 28, 2010, 11:02:16 PM

And Carl E. Shy, I hear ya about the flexibility. >.<
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Carl E. Shy

Also, things I still want to do to feel more comfortable:

-  work-out more to feel less like a weak woman. I like feeling strong, and seeing muscle-definition is something I like in people whether they're a masculine or feminine.
-  I still want to find a way to get rid of the appearance of my hips. When I see them through my straight-legged masculine jeans, it makes me feel like I'm just playing dress-up like a boy as a girl.
-  I also want to try growing out my leg hair. Every time I try it, my legs get really itchy or I change my mind. Again, for me, long-term decisions are usually out of the question if it affects one gender side too much.
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confused

4 words
absolutely have no idea
(to be edited later if i knew anything)

*Edit (finally)
right now , for the first layer , i wear unisex clothes that leans a little towards femininity , aside from looking nice in it , being comfortable in them is my biggest concern  ,no facial hair (hoping to complete the process and not having to remove it myself) , i don't wear make up right now (for stealth reasons) but i would wear light make up if needed

as for the second layer , my plan is for it to be 'there' but just 'there' if that means anything , i.e.  less in size than the average , not planning any kind of top surgery though , and i already am somewhere on the road to my final goal regarding that , which is so cool btw

third layer is something that i wouldn't hesitate to do if i can afford it , although , i can cope /live with not having srs (i mean i've already lived with it for 24 years now)

and i'm already on hormones , though relatively low dosage , but t-blocker for me is the most important

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Sevan

Thanks for the responses so far! Yay! Here I'd worried I was the only one musing on such topics...or that I'd muddled the waters so much that everyone would be all  ??? ::) lmao.

I'm working on a letter about my experiences with hormones and androgyn identity...but I've yet to get it down as I'd like just yet. It's coming. I swear! lol.

When I was a younger adult I had a naturally andro body...though fem leaning. It didn't bother me much though because clothes were easy and quick and fixed all!! For me, as I aged, I totally feminized. My hips widdened considerably, my breasts kept growing, I let my hair go long for the first time in life and it got to a point where my gender expression really got very far off track.
I'm also the spouse to the fabulous Mrs. Cynthialee.


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Eva Marie

For many of us, we have constraints on what we can do. What a partner is willing to put up with, your reputation in the business world/well established business contacts, your children.... work to constrain us.

Plus, there are the constraints we put on ourselves, or our biology that works against us (i'll never have a femme face, so you get to see the camera face  :D).

So, within the constraints i have, my goal is to lessen the GID effects. This means wearing women's clothes from second hand stores, badly applying grocery store makeup, and maybe having some subtle body modification going on  ;) It's not much, but it satisfies the "itch".

Ultimately, androgynes don't "transition", so there is no end game for us.
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Kinkly

I am a lot more comfortable in my body with the hormones I'm on but I'm still not happy with the results of that to this point - My breasts were larger when I was on Herbals.  I refuse to wear blatantly male clothes but mostly wear very fem tops with shorts that could go either way from either side of store I have beard and hairy legs there are times when I consider shaving my legs but If my legs do the same as my face did then shaving would turn out to be counter productive I definatly want to get rid of my chest hair In a lot of ways I want to live and present as someone who the average person can't tell if I am Male or Female. "Down there" ultimately I'd Like to have Both Parts sadly I don't think that is an option I would be able to have I've heard horror (Hetrosexist) stories that assume that It can be done and warnings on forums like this one that it can be prone to complications.  I've tried to find info on Urethral Reroute surgery but the only info I can find is in Pay to view only parts of body mod websites I can't afford the price to pay to read 4 "stories" which probably wont tell me much anyway.  The only doctor who works in the local City who specialises in gender issues sent a letter to my Doc who specialises In LGBiT Issues saying that She doesn't think that people like me would benefit from surgery that she would be willing to see me but that I would have to wait untill she has time for me and that anyone who pops up with urgent need (M2F Transexuals) will jump ahead of me.
I don't want to be a man there from Mars
I'd Like to be a woman Venus looks beautiful
I'm enjoying living on Pluto, but it is a bit lonely
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rejennyrated

Well this one doesn't entirely work for me because I've done three of the levels pretty well to the extreme...

EDIT - but as Helena has just pointed out to me I didn't do level 2 either as the HRT did it for me.

I can't imagine or tolerate any physical aspects of me as being male. So hormones and SRS were a 100% certainty from day one. Back in the 1960's I didn't know it was possible, so I even started to take in interest in science because as a little child I had a fantasy about discovering an infection which could rewrite my DNA and morph my body into that of a girl. Back then I honestly thought I would have to invent it!

The only levels on which I have any sort of departure from the extremes are:

Level One where I honestly do not have a fixed outward image. I have been known, even post op, to do short hair and an overtly masculine, but also the girly girly. Now that I know that the basic karotype and naughty bits are female, I like myself irrespective of the outward face I'm wearing and I enjoy mixing it up a fair bit and ringing the changes.

The other one is the mental aspect of Level Four - I also did the internal hormones to the extreme, but for some reason they left me with a brain which is a bit of a switch - like my clothes. I can express both. The default, these days, is female... but the male is still accessible and it can be fun when out with the boys, to play at being an honorary boy. (I think it amuses them too!)

Finally being of a spiritual nature I would add a Level Five - that of the soul.

I know some people maintain that it is genderless, but I'm not convinced. For a long time mine did feel androgynous - but strangely since I woke from my second bit of SRS - the revision I have been aware of a very different feeling.

I felt like that second op didn't just change the cosmetic appearance of my bits. While I was "out" something happened to me deep down on a mystical and spiritual level. I always was basically female... but since that second op I feel like on a spirit level my energies have been totally replaced. I now have a truly female soul in every respect. The level of androgyny that I felt there has been erased and now there is just a softness, a nurturing and contentment in there. I'm totally made of gossamer not steel.

I love the idea of confident vulnerability, if that isn't too paradoxical. That is someone who is so confident in their ability to survive whatever may come at them that they feel happy allowing themselves to be made totally vulnerable, dependent and helplessly soft. That's me.
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Rock_chick

Seeing as my androgynous nature is on the mental side of things rather than my physical appearance, I will go through all those filters...though not level 2, I would really prefer au natural rather than artificial boobs...I'd be happy with an a cup, the important thing is that "I can haz boobies!"

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aisha

i think there are other ways, theres a totally natural way to do this, that just takes a bit of time and effort and sometimes it probably happens by mistake or when your not trying.. i dont know anything for sure i just think there are
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rejennyrated

Quote from: Helena on May 29, 2010, 05:54:30 AM
Seeing as my androgynous nature is on the mental side of things rather than my physical appearance, I will go through all those filters...though not level 2, I would really prefer au natural rather than artificial boobs...I'd be happy with an a cup, the important thing is that "I can haz boobies!"

DOH - I didn't read that properly - I never had any top surgery either because my boobs grew massive all on their own....  :embarrassed:

So count me out from level 2 also then
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kyle_lawrence

Quote from: Carl E. Shy on May 28, 2010, 11:11:31 PM
-  I also want to try growing out my leg hair. Every time I try it, my legs get really itchy or I change my mind. Again, for me, long-term decisions are usually out of the question if it affects one gender side too much.

This is kind of my dilemma right now. I went about 2 years without shaving my legs, and didn't really think much about it. If anyone commented on it, my stock response was that I had better things to spend money on than razors (Like food), and I'm kinda lazy, and its not important enough for the time, money and effort.

Then one day In a combination of boredom and curiosity, I shaved. I kept my legs smooth for about a month, and got lazy again. Now I'm at the point where I  need to either shave now before it will take an hour and 3 razors or let it go.
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LordKAT

Quote from: kyle_lawrence on May 29, 2010, 10:47:22 AM
This is kind of my dilemma right now. I went about 2 years without shaving my legs, and didn't really think much about it. If anyone commented on it, my stock response was that I had better things to spend money on than razors (Like food), and I'm kinda lazy, and its not important enough for the time, money and effort.

Then one day In a combination of boredom and curiosity, I shaved. I kept my legs smooth for about a month, and got lazy again. Now I'm at the point where I  need to either shave now before it will take an hour and 3 razors or let it go.

I just said it was wash and go hair, I'd rather comb it than shave it. I only got bugged about it a few times in high school and from a friends brother who never got that I am not what he thinks.
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kyril

I let my leg hair go some times - I have been for the last couple months - but I always end up shaving it. Problem is that I only grow (barely) visible hair on a 6-inch stretch of leg, from about midcalf down to 2 inches above my ankle bone. The rest of my leg/foot area, like my torso and arms, only has tiny fine blonde vellus hair. So...frankly I just look weird unshaven. And I can't even use the cost excuse since my leg hair is so fine that I can comfortably shave with the same razor for 6 months.


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Fenrir

I have actually never bothered to shave my legs! And I'm stubbornly not shaving my armpits at the moment either (for the past 6 months or so, much to my mother's despair). I'm going through a bit of a rebellious phase at the moment.  ;D
But yeah, I'm pretty scared of anything permanent, to be honest. My gender identity takes so many twists and turns that the argument "but what if you regret it?" is fairly valid for me. But yeah, like Kinkly I would love for people to not be able to tell whether I was male or female, but I'd be going for more of an agendered thing than being both. I really wish that I had told my parents when I first hit puberty so I might've got puberty blockers and just developed that way... but the past is past.
My plan as I see it right now is see how far I can go towards my ideal without HRT, and have the option there should that not work.
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Virginia

Excellent thread!
Phoenix Rising, you made it real easy for me :)

I'll go (16)! So I'm a (male) bodied person and I'm on (estrogen). I thought I'd want assorted surgeries...but I'm finding that the balance of being chemically (female) (my (E) is fully (female), and my (T) is too.) and a (male) body...I've found balance in that. I'd like (larger) breasts, hell..I NEED (larger) breasts...thanks to (E) they are (growing) though not noticably...
~VA (pronounced Vee- Aye, the abbreviation for the State of Virginia where I live)
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Crow

I keep trying to reply to this, but every time I try to articulate it, the less I feel like I know what I want. Still a lot of figuring-out going on, here.

Level 1 is a definite. My hair, especially, if a huge part of how I express myself-- I can pretty well measure my own path of self-discovery in haircuts. Currently it's very short and pretty ambiguous (it could make sense with a tie and slacks or with a skirt and blouse). Clothes, also... my clothings style (and lifestyle in general, I suppose) can pretty well be summed up as, "female hippie meets male teacher."

I don't wear make-up really at all, aside from the odd occasion where I wear it just for fun (like at my college's masquerade ball, I drew swirls around my eyes in eyeliner instead of wearing an actual mask). But that's a part of my identity, too-- make-up is not "my thing," but I'm beginning to reach a point where I can step out of my shell and play around with things without feeling like I'm betraying myself. Make-up is, in a sense, the closest I can get to being "in drag." It's a way of having fun breaking out of my own mold.

I don't have facial hair, but I think I'll have fun with it when and if I ever do-- I think it would be great fun to wear a beard and moustache with a hairstyle that's on the feminine side of androgynous, if I can ever get away with that (I have to be careful, as an educator-- I need to maintain the ability to look "professional" if need be). In any case, I'm fairly certain I plan on taking T at least short-term, so I'm hoping to at least have the option of playing around with facial hair assuming circumstances allow. Until then, I just... don't shave. Anywhere. I shaved religiously during high school and my first year of college because I felt like that was what I was supposed to do and I was embarrassed not to, but over the last year or so, I just kind of... stopped. It's a lot less hassle, and physically a lot more comfortable for me. Plus, nobody seems to think much of my unshaved self, since as it turns out, neither "female hippies" NOR "male teachers" seem to be required by the unofficial rules of proper gender role etiquette to shave (female hippies are allowed, but not required—male teachers would get looked at funny if they did).

Level 2... I don't think is something I want, but I can't quite be sure. I doubt I will, though, because I don't like the idea of having surgery, and I'm so ambivalent about it that I'm afraid I would regret it. However, binding isn't really practical for me most of the time, because I have back problems and am in general too much of a wimp to handle not being able to breathe properly, especially if I have a binder on during a whole 8-hour day of teaching. (Seriously, I don't think I'd last the whole day without passing out... or breaking in half, one or the other.)

...and frankly, teaching is really the primary situation I would want to bind during, since the rest of time I mix genders left and right and don't really much care what's going on with my chest except on the (very rare) occasions that it interferes with a particular feel I want for an outfit, but while teaching I present pretty consistently as, for lack of a better term, a gentleman. However, it's very hard to pass as "a gentleman" when the most binding I can muster is two sports bras over my unfortunately massive (at least in comparison to my itty bitty body frame) chest, and 8 (or more) hours a day, 5 days a week for the better part of my adult life sounds like an awful lot of time to feel like I'm misrepresenting myself. So I... don't know. Lots of thinking still needs to happen on that one.

Level 3? No SRS for me. Other than the changes T will induce down there, I feel no need to do anything particularly drastic to my underwear region. Even if FtM bottom surgery was less iffy and I was less terrified of surgery, I don't feel like bottom surgery is what I want or need to feel comfortable in my own skin.

As for Level 4... I do indeed want hormones, but I don't know if I want to take T long-term. That's still a possibility, but I feel like I'm far more inclined to take T for a year or two and then stop and let the temporary changes fade off, leaving only the permanent things (voice, hair, underwear regions, etc.) and letting my body shape return to something more feminine. But we'll see.

And I don't really know about Jenny's added Level 5—I have such a hard time discerning souls from the rest of everything (though I do most certainly feel spiritually about the world and my own existence—I just have a hard time making sense of it all). I guess the closest I can come to explaining it is that I've always had kind of this overwhelming feeling that I'm a feminine guy in a girl's body. I've never quite known how to word it, though, so my descriptions fluctuate. As a little kid, I described it (half-jokingly, but not without truth) as "I was supposed to be a boy, but I was born a girl, so now I'm kind of both!" Now I just explain it as "I'm genderqueer." But I don't so much feel like a girl who needs to add masculine aspects to their body to feel properly mixed. I feel like a guy who was born as a girl but had too much of a feminine side to quite admit to being a guy. Except not quite, but that's the closest I can come to explaining it.

But that's all just inside me. It's the part that I can't justify or explain, because it's not my gender expression, it's my gender identity. It's what's in my soul, at least to the best of my ability to comprehend and explain the essence of myself. I don't have any "proof" for this, which makes it the hardest part of all to justify, even to myself.

I'm frustratingly out of words, so I guess I'll stop rambling, now, and hope that made some kind of sense. I'm up way too late.
Top Surgery Fund: $200/7,000
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Hauser

Ideally? None of it.

Ideally id like to download my conciousness onto the internet and have no physical body whatsoever.

but realistically just clothes and hair and stuff like that. the body is largely irrelevant to me.
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SnailPace

I'm really just starting everything I need to do to change... but here we go:

Level 1: I've got short hair, but I wouldn't say it's particularly masculine.  If anything it just emphasizes my feminine facial features (sadly).  I'm in the process of growing out my body hair and eyebrows.  It's funny, body hair was always seen in the negative before,  for example: "Ugg, I forgot to shave" but now in the positive: "Hey! Progress!".  I have an assortment of gendered and unisex clothing.  I wear men's underwear, women's pants, unisex shirts.  Usually I wear women's shoes as well, but that's only because my feet are too small for mens.  Also, I think that having breasts brings my unisex shirt into the girly realm, haha.

Level 2: I have not had any surgery done but I am definitely in favour of breast removal.  It would make my shirts fit a lot better and I could go topless in public.  Going swimming would be so much more fun than it already is.

Level 3: I think a hysterectomy would be nice to have, but any other FTM bottom surgeries are a bit too imperfect yet for my liking.

Level 4: Testosterone is a must for me.  I really like what comes with it; the possibility of facial hair, higher sex drive, fat redistribution, deeper voice... Yes! Sign me up!

Level 5: I really think I have a genderless soul... although I do have some qualities of both.  I have birthed a child, so I am somewhat maternal; my interests vary quite drastically on the gender spectrum; and I have been told I have a masculine outlook on life.  Finding the gender of my soul isn't very important to me though, I will let it be fluid and flexible.
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