8: The Mormon Proposition

[Janet_Girl]

... It's not fair to the majority of the people who believe in the Mormon church to blame them for doing what they think is right, even if you believe it's wrong. ....

So even though the violation of basic human right is some thing they feel is right, the rest of the world is wrong in believing that basic human right are just that a basic human right.  Does not God teach love?  And did not Christ teach that he was the fulfillment of the law?  Does not the Bible teach to beware of false prophets?

You are welcome to your beliefs and I will defend your right to them, but where your beliefs ends is at my rights.

[Astarielle]

So even though the violation of basic human right is some thing they feel is right, the rest of the world is wrong in believing that basic human right are just that a basic human right.  Does not God teach love?  And did not Christ teach that he was the fulfillment of the law?  Does not the Bible teach to beware of false prophets?

You are welcome to your beliefs and I will defend your right to them, but where your beliefs ends is at my rights.

You removed the important parts. That makes me a sad Star...what I believe is all humans were created equally, and no one has a right to tell anyone who they are or are not, nor what they can do. If it's something that hurts other people, then I will say "Well, perhaps not.",  but otherwise, if someone wants to marry a cat, I'll stand back and say "if it makes you happy."

I agree with you, this is totally out of line from the church. But getting angry will only get them defensive, and no one will be happy. I'm just moderately offended you believe I'm personally trying to tread on your rights, and a little saddened that we're reduced to insults at someones faith system.

Marriage is a right for EVERYONE and to use a pathetic religion to ban it because they are not part of that poor excuse of a religion is a good reason to run the Mormons out of the country, just as they did back when the nut case that founded the religion was done.

It really saddens me that you think we have to run innocent people out of this country, America, land of the free, because the church they believe in took things a little too far, and that you would call a man a nutcase because he founded a religion you don't agree with. I would think, considering the reason we're all here, we would be a little more tolerant than that.

[Janet_Girl]

The whole thing is a church is using it wealth and power to deny another their rights.  That is the whole thing about Prop 8 to deny the GLBT community the same rights as they have.  But if we let one sect of a religion to run the country, we become no better than the radical religious lead countries who threaten our American way of life and freedom.

I am sorry if I offended you, but I never intended to make it personal. 

[Julie Marie]

Astarielle, thank you for correcting me.  Maybe what I've learned from pro-gay marriage sources have done what I've criticized certain organized religions of doing.

But religion, religious beliefs, doctrines, bibles, churches, all have no place in the process of determining who should have what rights.  This country was formed on the belief we ALL have basic fundamental rights and one of those rights is the right to marry.  No Mormon, no Catholic, no Protestant, no Jew, no atheist has the right to take away anyone's fundamental rights.

Documents from the Mormon church itself, show it initiated an anti-gay campaign in Hawaii and funded most of it.  Gay marriage lost there.  They show the Mormon church created the National Organization for Marriage (NOM) and fund that group.  NOM has been very aggressive in fighting gay marriage in many states, all with the funding from the Mormon church and the Catholic church.  This anti-gay campaign was initiated, formed and wholly supported by the Mormon church and there is documentation to prove that.  It has all been very calculated.

The Mormons did some polls in Hawaii and found their church wasn't too well perceived.  So they launched a campaign to find a woman. "not Mormon or Catholic" to front their anti-gay marriage group.  They also found the Catholic church had a better image and went to them for help.  When that worked in Hawaii, they took that success and repeated it almost to the T in California.  They put a lot of time, effort, thought and money into what is essentially an attack on gays.

That is not my idea of doing God's will.  It's mean, vicious and if it's anyone's work, it's the work of the devil (if I were so inclined to believe in that stuff).

[cynthialee]

I would be the first to pull the lever if we had the Prophet and the Elders on the gallows but it seems to me that the level of anti Mormon sentiment expressed in this thread is perhaps a tad on the side of excessive.
just sayin'

[gennee]

I read the Constitution at least once a year. I need to study it more in detail because many issues will depend upon whether or not I have mmy facts straight. My question about the Mormon church is why is it depriving other people from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? What they're doing is hypocritical in my mind. 

What I find ironic is that a number of towns in Utah are passing anti-discriminaton laws. Could it be that some are demonstrating their faith and putting it into action?

Gennee

[gennee]

Astarielle, thank you for correcting me.  Maybe what I've learned from pro-gay marriage sources have done what I've criticized certain organized religions of doing.

But religion, religious beliefs, doctrines, bibles, churches, all have no place in the process of determining who should have what rights.  This country was formed on the belief we ALL have basic fundamental rights and one of those rights is the right to marry.  No Mormon, no Catholic, no Protestant, no Jew, no atheist has the right to take away anyone's fundamental rights.

Documents from the Mormon church itself, show it initiated an anti-gay campaign in Hawaii and funded most of it.  Gay marriage lost there.  They show the Mormon church created the National Organization for Marriage (NOM) and fund that group.  NOM has been very aggressive in fighting gay marriage in many states, all with the funding from the Mormon church and the Catholic church.  This anti-gay campaign was initiated, formed and wholly supported by the Mormon church and there is documentation to prove that.  It has all been very calculated.

The Mormons did some polls in Hawaii and found their church wasn't too well perceived.  So they launched a campaign to find a woman. "not Mormon or Catholic" to front their anti-gay marriage group.  They also found the Catholic church had a better image and went to them for help.  When that worked in Hawaii, they took that success and repeated it almost to the T in California.  They put a lot of time, effort, thought and money into what is essentially an attack on gays.

That is not my idea of doing God's will.  It's mean, vicious and if it's anyone's work, it's the work of the devil (if I were so inclined to believe in that stuff).

Julie, it's this attitude that I'm having to counteract. It's not easy but it's something I'm doing. What I'm finding out is that many people do not know what we are about and what we go through. I'm finding that many folks really do not know their bibles more intelligently, often relying on their pastor to tell them everything. Part of knowing scripture, LGBT issues, the Constitution, or anything is doing research and study personallly. Sadly many folks have not done this.

Gennee

[Shana A]

I respect the rights of Mormons, or anyone else, to live according to their religious beliefs. However, when it extends to legislating how I might live my life, they are trampling on my rights, as well as the rights of other religions to perform marriages which they do sanction. Separation of church and state was instituted for good reason. If they are actively involved in political lobbying, then they should pay taxes on all that money they raised.

Z

[juliekins]

It really saddens me that you think we have to run innocent people out of this country, America, land of the free, because the church they believe in took things a little too far, and that you would call a man a nutcase because he founded a religion you don't agree with. I would think, considering the reason we're all here, we would be a little more tolerant than that.

Astarielle,

I do respect your right to believe in the all or parts of the religion of your upbringing. I was raised Roman Catholic, but do not consider myself a part of that Church any longer. Part of my decision was disbelief. Disbelief in the actions of the men who run the Church and chose to persecute people like me. My problem is not with Christ, but with the Pope and his Bishops and Cardinals.

You'll notice I added bold to your quote. This is the only place that I take issue with you. "A little too far"? If I am not accorded full, equal rights and have been the subject of a smear campaign cleverly designed and funded to rewrite a state constitution, then I have a profound problem with this church organization. I don't know what your sexual orientation is, but they could equally go after you to squash ENDA like they did gay marriage.

I would like you to see that this is a BIG thing that this church did to us. The equivalent would be for us to try and amend the California constitution (or Hawaii or Maine or the other states where NOM works), to say that religious freedom will only be for everything accept the LDS Church. That we outlaw them.

At the very least, I believe the LDS church should be fined for breaking the political campaign laws, and that the IRS should go after those top members who signed off on fictitious tax reports. If the RCC & LDS church continue to create, fund and support front organizations like the National Organization for Marriage, then those churches should lose their tax exempt status. Creating these front groups is like a host nation allowing for, hiding and funding a terrorist organization. I consider the actions of these churches civil terrorism.

I know you personal support our rights as LGBT people to be who we are, and marry those we want. I'm only making the point that what these large churches are doing to people's civil rights is nothing short of wrong & criminal. Just my humble opinion!

[Julie Marie]

No church, no politician, no organization can survive without the financial support of the people.  I realized a long time ago the Catholic church was against people like me.  So I left.  I don't know how much in donations they lost but whatever it was, they didn't get it because of their stance on transgender people.

Saying we don't agree with the policies but supporting the organization with our donations makes our words meaningless.  The Mormon church needs cash to wage their anti-gay campaigns, as does the Catholic church.  They got it in the tens of millions of dollars and they keep getting it.  Everyone who donates supports prejudice and discrimination.  If you want to stop that, stop giving them your money.  It's as simple as that.

There are a lot of really good-hearted people who are Mormon.  There are a lot of good-hearted people who are Catholic.  What I fail to understand is why they support religions that preach hatred.  I never got that and I never will.

[Just Kate]

I would be the first to pull the lever if we had the Prophet and the Elders on the gallows but it seems to me that the level of anti Mormon sentiment expressed in this thread is perhaps a tad on the side of excessive.
just sayin'

Wow.  Is this what some of us have come to?  I cannot imagine anyone who isn't directly guilty of murder that I'd feel right about killing and even then I might reconsider.

BTW, thank you Astarielle for your frank and honest opinion on the LDS church.  We could all do with a little more tolerance - thank you for attempting to spread some.