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Degrees of stealth....

Started by cindianna_jones, November 23, 2006, 06:44:09 AM

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cindianna_jones

This thought is spawned from the other stealth conversation going on which I'm enjoying.  It brings out the best thinkers to talk about real problems.

So here I am ... regardless of what I feel or what other feel I should do.... and I find a man who cares for me as a woman morre than he cares about my past.  I've told him all he wants to know.  He's seen my book but never read it.  He's met my kids and parents and he's all cool about that.  He knows very few details in reality.  It's not something he cares much about.  I'll bring something up once in a while but I know he's genuinely not interested in the topic.... he's not uncomfortable about it... it's just that just about anything else is more interesting to him (except astronomy of course. He won't talk about that either;)).

But here's the thing... none of his professional acquaintences can know and he does not want to tell his brother and sisters. This was HIS request.

Personally, this has not been an issue for me.  I meet his coworkers only occasionally when we get together for casual social occasions.  I have traveled to see his family several times.  And we get along great. I truly love his sisters as my own.

So here's the question to roll around in our collective mouths.... If you live your life in stealth, it's no problem.  But what if you've commited yourself to be completely open with everyone... do you give up your love and relationship (which ain't no easy thing to find you know) with someone so dear for his sake?

Here it is.... post your opinion or comment.

Cindi
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Stormy Weather

When I was in hospital just recently, I was in a bay with 3 other TS women, one of whom passed absolutely perfectly because she was Thai with a tiny frame, beautiful face and transitioned very early in her life.

She confessed to me that even her boyfriend didn't know about her. She'd told him that she was in hospital for vaguely obstetric reasons while she was really in for some labial touch-up work.

Someone in the other thread mentioned the psychic harm done by living in stealth and even though I disagreed, can appreciate the point in a case like this. Personally, I could never hide something like that from a partner.

Anyway, true love comes rarely and if my partner asked me not to tell anyone, I would have no problems with that because as I've said before, once you tell certain people, they can't get past it at all and in their eyes, you'll always be the freak, the odd one... the sex-change case.

The only problem with that is maintaining an effective web of conspirators, sooner or later someone will slip and you're the one at the centre of it all. I think the problem comes from committing yourself to one extreme position or another; total stealth or total disclosure. For me, somewhere in between (verging towards total stealth) seems to work quite well because no-one important to me can then hold me hostage. If that makes any sense at all...
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melissa90299

I have started to reply to this three times. And decided to edit my thoughts. This is a real dilemma. I think I would need more information about the realtionship. He seems to be in denial about your past. The fact that he didn't bother to read your book is a red flag to me.

I would ask him.

"What would happen if after we have been together for awhile, everyone finds out. I mean everyone. Brother, sisters, business associates. Everyone."

I would expect an answer of something along the lines of "Well, it would be difficult but I would find a way to deal with it because I love you."
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brina

Hiee CJ,

  I can appreciate and sympathize with what you are saying. Speaking for myself I can not really say what I would do if and when the time comes for me to cross that threshhold. I would never conceal anything from my partner, but, I would expect him to be fully supportive of me as well.
  This does go back to the original problem though. As long as society doesn't recognize transwoman as WOMAN then nothing will change. I think it really boils down to when is enough enough? When will we stand up and demand that society accept us for who we are. It goes without saying that the first ones to do this are going to pay a very heavy price, but they will make a difference. As more follow in their footsteps society will change and eventually accept us and the issue of living stealth will be a mute point.

Byee,
  Brina
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SusanK

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 23, 2006, 06:44:09 AM
This thought is spawned from the other stealth conversation going on which I'm enjoying.  It brings out the best thinkers to talk about real problems.

So here's the question to roll around in our collective mouths.... If you live your life in stealth, it's no problem.  But what if you've commited yourself to be completely open with everyone... do you give up your love and relationship (which ain't no easy thing to find you know) with someone so dear for his sake?

Here it is.... post your opinion or comment.

Cindi

Since I'm not there yet, I can't say with certainty, only what I think I will do and learn from others. It's really a very personal situation and solution. I do know, however, that if you don't at some point in the relationship if it gets serious, especially into marriage, it will likely catch up to you at sometime. It won't take much for a professional to find your history if anyone wants to hire one to know, almost everything is now on-line or publically accessible, such as court records, birth certificates (old and new), etc.

That said, I guess I would simply prolong it as long as possible and then if/when discovered, be humble and apologetic. You can always show them the risks of being out if you're not a public figure, and if you're totally passable say there wasn't any real reason to come out. As long as he knows and you're comfortable with that, there's no problem.

I would ask, what would he do if you are discovered? Have you talked this through with him?  What would you do if he wanted it a secret because of the fear of being out, if only to family and friends? Maybe it's not your fear but his?

Just some thoughts. Best of luck there. We're all listening to the experienced.

--Susan--
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cindianna_jones


Melissa, I actually composed a long response telling you how great our 17 year marraige is... but really, that is irrelevant to the topic here.  Let me just say you have some very good questions for my situation.  And believe it or not, we have addressed them and dealt with them. He has had to deal with doctors in a hospital when they refused to treat me early on in our relationship. There are many other instances that I could cite... like visiting with my family. My parents still can't do pronouns even though I've legally carried my female name for most of my adult life.

For me, in this situation, I have been able to carry out his wishes.  His family lives in another state and my family in yet another.  The two have never met.  And they likely never will.  I helped rear his son who has not been told.  He calls me Mom and I cherish our relationship. One day, we may tell him.  But we see no compelling reason to let it out for now.  When that time comes, we will be forthright about it.  And I'll give him a copy my book.

Lori, I don't know how to answer your question.  I truly don't. I was planning on living my life alone when hubby stumbled into my life.  Before I met him, I had planned on sharing my life with good friends and for that period in my life, it worked.  My Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays were always a wonderful time for the diversity in my home. Only one year did I spend my holidays alone. I vied to never let that happen again. I've always befriended all kinds of very interesting people. They have been a treasure in my life.  I've always cherished my friends.  Many have come and gone, but I've managed to keep a few lifelong friends.  I'm sure that this tradition will continue with or without hubby.  

When I was younger, I was always a loner.  When I found myself really alone without my family, I decided that had to change.  Someone told me once "to have a friend you must first be a friend".  So to start, I invited everyone I knew who had no where to go over for Thanksgiving dinner.  And that started my "new family" tradition. There have been a few who have taken advantage of me.  And that happens.  For the most part however, my life has been enriched beyond measure.

Susan, the reason I posed this question is that I have lived it.  It has been very beneficial for me.  I could extend the question even a bit further.  I personally feel that posting a picture of what I currently look like (my avatar pic is 19 years old) it might turn out to be detrimental to my own children. They are adults now, married with their own children. If I were totally open, could I hurt my own kids who are subject to the strict traditions of their faith in Utah? Although we have never talked about it, I do try to use some common sense in what I make publically available.

I have walked the walk and talked the talk.

Cindi

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Julie Marie

Cindi, right now I'm in the coming out stage.  At this point in my transition stealth isn't even possible.  The beard shadow alone gives me away.  So I have never considered stealth and I don't know if it's an option.  The path I've chosen is to be out.  Not standing on stage and screaming I'm TS but not to go to any great measures to keep it hidden.

If I were in your shoes I don't know if I could make the compromises you have.  I'd probably have the attitude of here I am, take it or leave it.  While I would love to have someone in my life I care deeply about, I wouldn't want someone who ignores an important part of me.  I had that for 23 years and could never truly be myself.  I will always have a male past.  I was born male, was married and fathered children.  I have done a lot of great things as a guy and I don't want to sweep that under the carpet like it never existed.  It's part of my life and part of who I am.

So I guess I'm saying that yes, I would be willing to give up just about everything to live my life as me and me means past, present and future.  If any of that bothers a prospective friend or lover, there's the door.  Don't let it hit you in the  :o

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Buffy

I have chosen who I tell about my past.

They are people in my life who I trust deeply and know they will keep th information to themselves. When I am with them, I never talk about the subject, but my friends, at times have raised issues and I have answered them.

So far three of my very close friends share my past, one of them is my business partner, the other two girls I have known and worked with for the past 3 years.

Relationships... I have had several so far and not told any of the guys I have dated of my past. If any of these relationships became very serious, then yes, I would tell. I have always believed that any relationship has to be built on trust and mutual respect.

If any relationship gets to the above stage and I have this discussion.... and the worst happens, then so be it. I want to be accepted as who I am, not who I used to be, but I can't force anyone to do that.

Buffy





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Sandy

Cindi:

The two things that have been with me most of my life is a deep feeling of loneliness, and the wrongness that  comes from being a transsexual.

Were I in your position, and have the opportunity to be correct in body and spirit AND be able to share my life and love with someone who loves me for who I am, I think I would be willing to compromise myself on some issues.

With the honest understanding between both of us that hiding the truth can be more devastating if it is discovered rather than revealed in a controlled way.  We would both have to understand the risks and accept them.

Just my opinion.  And worth every penny that you paid for it!

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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Sheila

Cindi,
  When you do find that someone special, it is hard to let go. I know and I have had that person in my life for 39 years (37 married). We worked through this problem and we still love each other. The only thing that is different is that she is not a lesbian. So that makes one part of our life non existent. Other than that we are just like a mature older couple. I can understand that not letting your hubbies family know or his aquaintences, but that wouldn't be for me nor would it be for my wife either. Everyone in this world is different and the way you live your life is different than it would be for me. For me, I couldn't stand trying to hide something again. It works for you and that is your life and you have been successful for 17 plus years. I think transitioning when you are younger is a lot easier than when you are older. When you are older, you have a lot more history behind you, a lot more to hide. You also will physically transition easier as the estrogen will help you out. What I do in my life, is my life. What you do in your life is your life. What I disagree with is that there is no such thing as deep stealth. It would be like the superman thing. Glasses on, Clark Kent. Glasses off, Superman. They weren't even sun glasses. LOL Just get someone mad at you and believe me, your husbands family and business associates will know who you are.
Sheila
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cindianna_jones

Quote from: Sheila on November 23, 2006, 08:33:18 PM
Just get someone mad at you and believe me, your husbands family and business associates will know who you are.
Sheila

;)  that could certainly happen.  There will be a time when it is totally unimportant.  As we get older, it becomes less of an issue.

My very best friend is here for Thanksgiving.  She lives in total stealth except for the doctor she sees.  She's having a tought time with this very issue.  She's afraid to get close to anyone.  It's so sad that we work so hard to change our gender... and then can't live it to a great degree.
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SusanK

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 23, 2006, 09:12:13 AM

Susan, the reason I posed this question is that I have lived it.  It has been very beneficial for me.  I could extend the question even a bit further.  I personally feel that posting a picture of what I currently look like (my avatar pic is 19 years old) it might turn out to be detrimental to my own children. They are adults now, married with their own children. If I were totally open, could I hurt my own kids who are subject to the strict traditions of their faith in Utah? Although we have never talked about it, I do try to use some common sense in what I make publically available. I have walked the walk and talked the talk.

Cindi

Thanks for the response, however, I'm still confused. If you're worried about being public, why write a book of your life and experience and have a blog? I'm not against being some degree of stealth, it has a lot of benefits, I just don't understand asking a question about your partner asking you not to reveal yourself to his friends, coworkers and family. My only thought, and question, was, what if anyone of them found out anyway, as they likely will eventually. What will your partner do? I trust you have been there to know the answer.

As for a photo, that's almost irrelevant, knowledge is more important. What would any harm do if you had a more recent photo? Folks would recognize you easier than from your name? Honestly, I do understand why and think it's also a good thing. I give people more credit connecting the dots. Please accept this as thinking out loud. I like hearing and reading about others' experience, and yours is very much appreciated.

--Susan--
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Julie Marie

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 23, 2006, 10:20:44 PM
My very best friend is here for Thanksgiving.  She lives in total stealth except for the doctor she sees.  She's having a tought time with this very issue.  She's afraid to get close to anyone.  It's so sad that we work so hard to change our gender... and then can't live it to a great degree.

That's why I don't think I could go back into hiding.  Living in fear again would be too much for anyone to ask of me.  Right now I'm experiencing a freedom and liberation I never thought I'd know.  And it's wonderful.  To go back into the closet, albeit another closet, I just couldn't do that to myself.  I just came out of hiding and I'm not going back.  I'd rather live life alone than hide my past and live in fear of discovery again. 

I had a great life as a male.  I was married for over 23 years, raised three kids and watched them grow into healthy and happy adults.  And I did well in the working world.  My ex and I are on good terms and see each other occasionally.  To imagine families getting together and having to tell my family not to slip up and mention my past is something I couldn't do.  I am free now and I will not give that up.

Shelia is right when she says it's different when you transition at an older age.  For me I've experienced many things younger TSs hope to experience.  The only difference is I did it in my birth gender and they will do it in their identified gender.  Which is better?  I have no idea.  All I know is this is the best time of my life (outside of the life with my kids) and I know it will get better.  As I said before, I am me and if that bothers you that's okay but I won't change for anyone.

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Sheila

Good for you Julie. Now, don't go hog wild and go back to work wearing a mini skirt. LOL Take it slowly and let them catch up to who you are. They don't know as much as you and it takes education, not much, but a little will go a long way.
Sheila
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