an off base religion Christianity

[Sailor_Saturn]

In ancient Israel the government and the church were the same body. The clerics were both officials of the law and officials of the faith. Tithe was simply an early form of taxation, and its distribution was primarily toward maintenance of the community. In other words, tithing has been rendered utterly redundant by the formation of the Westphalian state. And if it is to be conducted anyway, the whole of the revenue should be devoted to the pursuit of charitable works since maintenance of the community is already handled by local, state, and federal authorities. I wonder what sort of counter-argument this church could POSSIBLY form against that?

And by "devoted to charitable works", I do NOT mean payment of the staff's salaries, housing the staff, or anything else of the sort. In other words, the staff of the church get zilch, nada, ZERO of the tithe money. Maintenance should dip into tithe as little as humanly possible. Power and heat for a winter fundraiser for soup kitchens? Use tithe money. Power and heat for tomorrow's congregation meeting? No more tithe money than the bill demands, and you BETTER live a Spartan lifestyle at that meeting. That means no church gym, no fancy play center for the kids, there are already secular bodies which provide these services (and for free if you're impoverished).

Christ was only violent once during his journeys on Earth, and that was against moneychangers in the church. That MEANS something, folks.

[Julie Marie]

The U.S. tax code makes the occupation of religious leader very appealing on the financial front.  Social perceptions make the occupation very appealing on the status front.  If you are attracted to fame and fortune, this occupation could be very lucrative, if you play your cards right.  It's no wonder we have so many hucksters who call themselves servants of the Lord.  In order for that to be true, they have to change their name to "Lord."

I realize there are people who see a calling, truly good people who do this from their heart.  Too bad the hucksters give this calling such a bad name.

Whenever there is a pile of cash, perceived or real, you can bet the vultures will start circling.

[Sarah Louise]

I agree, there are too many hucksters.  And unfortunately too many people who are willing to follow them.

[tekla]

Promise anything, everything and have to deliver nothing?  How can you lose money at that?

[Julie Marie]

The problem is if anything ever got delivered, no one ever came back to confirm it.

[Sailor_Saturn]

How unfortunate, and how true. The quickest way to fame and wealth is to pretend to be a person of the cloth. But I blame unthinking congregations who blindly try to buy their way into Heaven with donations ten times as much as the conmen who are happy to take their money. This sort of Christian is unacceptably common, and always a disgrace. God gave us the capacity to reason, to question, to doubt. And at least one parable demands that we USE the gifts God gives us, rather than letting them sit around gathering dust. We were even warned about false preachers, for Heaven's sake! The moneychangers, preaching about the virtues of living simply rather than to excess, inability to serve both Mammon and the Lord, how much do these Christians need to realize that their preachers are frauds?!!!

And the worst part about it, the most irksome element, is that these are often the same idiots who claim to be "true" Christians. The same lunkheads who tell me that because I'm an MtF transsexual I'm being led by the devil and may even be a demon myself. It makes you want to repeatedly smack them screaming WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID?!!!

[Plague]

Man made Religion All Sucks. Because, I have almost been every denomination under the sun. I have found peace with Jehovah God hope all can to love plague the little goth girl. p.s you all have vallid points. peace out >^o^<

[Del]

Julie Marie,
I agree that those who want fame and fortune can do it easily through ministry.
But, they sicken me.
Unlike the televangelists that take up an offering every 30 seconds I only take up one per service.
I did a service tonight and took up one offering of the which all of the money went towards the rent of the building.
I received nothing as usual. That is why I am not afraid to work.
Sadly I am disabled now and my wife works. It tears me up to have her go to work while I am at home struggling to be a househusband and feeling like a failure.
Those who preach for a living consider it a career.
I would rather live for preaching because to me it is a calling one cannot turn their back on nor abuse for financial gain.
I personally wish that churches paid taxes as our does. To me the tax exempt status is a joke and something that should be abolished. let those filthy rich televangelists pay taxes like the average hard working person.
But, that's just my rant because I see people playing with the word of God leading people to hell.
Sorry about going on so but the rich slothful heretics sicken me.

[SarahM777]

Del,

If you don't mind answering i do have a question for you. To me it seems like if you go all the way back to the beginning that God is asking us 4 questions which get to the heart of the matter. I go back to the beginning because Enoch,Noah,Abraham and all the other patriarchs came before Jesus and also they never had the Bible.

Which leads me to the 4 questions i believe that God asks

"Do you know Me?" 
"Do you love Me?"
"Do you trust / believe Me?"
"Do you obey Me?"

And if these are the questions that He is asking us why do we not hear them in the churches?

[Del]

Sarah,
The word says that when the Gentiles which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law become a law unto themselves.

Sadly the things in the law showed both the holiness of God and the sins of men making all guilty. Jesus even told the pharisees that they should have taken heed to mercy rather than washing cups and such.

If preachers would get away from constantly begging for money, trying to use worldly tactics to get money and conforming to this world and teaching their flocks to do the same some might know him.
I know some people that place the four things you mention above everything else.
They know, love, believe and obey the Lord to the best of their human ability. They also know that they will fail regardless of how hard they try and rely upon the mercy of the Lord as they also know the word says the Lord delights in those who fear him and hope in his mercy.

In our church that is the main focus.
We want the people to know the Lord, love him with all their heart, believe his word and obey him to the best of their ability.

When a person really wants to know the Lord the things of this world don't seem to matter as much. When a person loves the Lord with a God given love by the Spirit they no longer really pout or get angry when times are bad. They know it will increase their faith and prepare them to meet him and handle worse problems in the future. That's the unconditional love for him that they also have for their brethren.
When a person truly believes the word of God that is pretty much all that matters in their life. What psychologists and the news reporters and teachers say may be useful for this world in areas needed but they know the word of God is more important.
When a person obeys the Lord from the heart they realize that he will guide them by his Spirit.

I imagine there are a handful of churches across the world that still teach these things but when and if you find them they will not have a large flock or be famous. They will be just like those the Lord ministered to. The word says the common people heard him gladly. Poor folk know they will probably never be rich and the ones I know see the riches of this world a snare to take their eyes off Christ and forget him.

There are some out there young lady. But they are hard to find and the people I know were led by the Spirit to them to assemble.

That's the best answer I can give.
The main reason nobody teaches the four things you mention is because it doesn't make the preacher rich or allow the people to retain their proud spirit.

[Julie Marie]

Del,

If one chooses this calling and does it from the goodness of their heart and helps people in a positive way, I see no problem if the people they help wish to help him or her back with financial support.  To me it's no different than a social worker who takes donations so he or she can do social work full time and still be able to put a roof over their head, food on the table and clothing on their back.  Oh yeah, you get to go to the movies once in a while too. 

I'm not a religious person but I do know many people gain peace of mind from their religious connections.  So those who have made this a calling need not apologize for taking donations to support oneself.

[SarahM777]

Del,

Thank you for taking the time to answer. I am more convinced that way to often the church spends to much time time splitting hairs over issues that He never said. Somehow i do not think that when all is said and done we are not going to be given a 100 page test on what was said by Luther,Vatican I,Vatican II,Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, or the pastors,ministers,priests or theologians. Or if baptisim by immersion or sprinkling is valid or not etc. Or if we can recite the entire bible word for word. (Which the scribes could do) They got the letter of the law but they missed the heart and soul of what God was saying and showing them.

I think if Jesus were to comeback in this time the same way He did the first time i think He would on the hair splitting i think He would tell us to "Chill out" so to speak as we can not understand it from a human logical perspective. His basic message would be the very same since time began. Which is because of God's grace,mercy and love we can get to know Him,Love Him, trust Him and be able to obey Him.

[Del]

Sarah,

Amen

[Amazon D]

http://projects.latimes.com/hollywood/star-walk/billy-graham/

I always thought that religous leaders were to be humble

a star on the walk of fame hmmm

[tekla]

Billy Graham was anything but humble.  Somehow a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame ain't even enough for what he did for the marriage of That Old Time Religion with modern mass market communication technologies and advertising strategies.  He pioneered - a total innovator - the Christ as Non-Prophet Corporation that would successfully serve an entire clown college of preachers that came after him, including - but not limited to by any means:  Benny Hime, Jerry Fallwell, Oral Roberts, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, Reverend Ike, Reverend Gene Scott, and the biggest rock-star on TV preacher ever, Jerry Lee Lewis's own kissing cousin, Jimmy Swaggart.  What kind of corporate jet would Jesus fly anyway?  I'm thinking Gulfstream.  Yeah, that's what old Billy Graham did for us.

And best of all, a lot of that 'fame' he had came from being this kind of 'preacher to the Presidents' (there's a huge slice of humble pie right there), among which are some of the worst scoundrels and immoral people of the 20th Century.  It's not like his council had any real effect.  But the photos are strong PR Kung Fu. 

[Sailor_Saturn]

Yes, that about sums it up. These self-aggrandizing bastards with no sense of moral decency and even less respect for God put on a robe and start waving a Bible around. They do it because it's profitable, and it's profitable because of a degeneration in the standards of a lot of Christians. People are more interested in BUYING their way into Heaven than actually bothering to reflect on moral and spiritual issues and live accordingly. Let's get mad at Jerry Falwell and the like, absolutely. But let's be RAVING FURIOUS at their followers. After all, if the money and political sway weren't there, these parasitic preachers would die on the vine.

[veronica nickie]

Hi Sarah and Del

I agree with both of you and just wanted to say your spiritual maturity is appreciated and so needed out there.  I have been part of a number of Charismatic or Pentacostal churches thru the decades.  We had great worship services, outstanding bible teaching.  But I so needed and wanted to see real Christian love in actions.  Now go to a small church of at most 150 and it does well with all four items.

I think one reason there is not more of what is lacking is in the US believers may suffer some trials in the areas of finances and health, but seldom persecution for who they are or what they have had to learn right from the Lord.  For example in the tg ts community many many of us have been crushed thre the years with rejections and worse.  I think we know by experience how needed the real agape type love is needed and missing in most assemblies.  Jesus said three times in the upper room, love one another.  Why do so many put such harsh conditons on that?  Jesus did not.  I believe that command was to all believers

Veronica

[SarahM777]

Hi Veronica,

By no means do i have it all "down" yet. I see where He wants me to get to and it is still one very large mountain to climb.

I often think the church has lost it's focus as to why Jesus came. He came on a rescue mission. He came to seek the lost,give sight to the blind,heal the sick,make the lame to walk,give hope to the hopeless, and to set the captives free. We are suppose to throw life lines not anchors. Jesus reminds us that they will know that we are His by the love we show one to another. Which Paul expands on when he says the fruits of the Spirit are love,joy,peace patience,goodness,kindness,gentleness,faithfulness and self control and there is no law against these things. Which Paul also goes into in 1 Corth 13 in which everything we do should flow out of love.

Way to often people in the church will use the lists of what is unrighteous between one person and another person and the true purpose of what the lists really suppose to show us. The lists are to show us where we stack up to Him and not those around us. They are to show us that without God's love,grace and mercy no one is righteous on our own merits. To often what happens is that it allows people to justify there own actions because then they don't look so bad. Never mind the seven "deadly" sins (Which are so much more socially accepted) but it's ok to fudge on your taxes,it's ok to talk about the unwed mother,it's ok to get blitzed during a Packer game (Yes i am from WI) etc etc etc. The consequences of different sins may be different but not the final result which is the same. The other thing that gets forgotten is that there are those things that are wrong for me as a person that are between me and Him alone and it's not for me to tell someone else that they can not do it if God has not said it as a general statement for all to follow.
God does not have a list of which sins are worse then others in His sight.

[SarahM777]

If you don't mind this chapter from Romans has helped me out so much.

Romans 8

Life Through the Spirit

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, "Abba,[g] Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Present Suffering and Future Glory

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

More Than Conquerors

31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
   "For your sake we face death all day long;
   we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[j]

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NIV

[Julie Marie]

Speaking of Billy Graham, he hails from a suburb of Chicago, Wheaton, just 20 or so minutes from where we live.  Wheaton is in the center of DuPage county and home to all the county courts and administration buildings.  It's also interesting to note DuPage county, immediately west of Cook County (home of Chicago), is strongly Republican and very religious.  Needless to say, when Illinois passed civil unions recently, there was something like three applications submitted in DuPage.  Next door in Cook County they had thousands.

Ole Billy still has a strong presence in his hometown and home county, despite the far more liberal attitude prevalent next door.