A Mormon tells me his story

[Witch of Hope]

I stand in contact with an American who is at the same time a Mormon. Born as a woman, he feels as a man, and wants to adapt his body to his soul. However, he does not dare to say this publicly and to act because he knows what means this: Excommunication, loss of his family which reveals him as youngster on the street of the homelessness; and all friendship within his cult.
The poor guy has already got over two attempted suicide, but has not found the courage to talk even not with his psychologist, about it. Only in the anonymity of the Internet and in friendship on the Internet, he can talk about it.
I find it sad that a church behaves so; the fact that a family, to God pretends to believe, to is such a thing able. Or what do you mean?

[spacial]

It is very sad for people who find themselves part of a rigid system of thinking, to come to awareness, yet be unable to deal with it for fear of ostracation.

Somehting similr happend to me in 1968. Prior to that I was basically a social conformist, probably not dissimilar to George Bush. Then I went to an anti-Vietnam rally in Trafalgar Square, London. I wasn't against the war, as such, communism was the dark evil and neded to be defeated. I was strongly opposed to the use of Napalm and its effects on children.

At first, all I could see were a lot of throughly respectable people, many dressed in business suits. No chanting, no violence and no drugs.

Then all hell broke loose. The following day, a photo appeared on the front page of the Daily Express, a young girl on the ground, shielding her face, while a burly policeman stood over her with his trunchon aimed at her face. Even today, children in school, taught social history, are told that the 1968 rally was a demo by a bunch of long haired, dirty communist types who wanted to overthrow the established order.

It caused me to walk out of my school at the first opportunity, 2 years later. So, I not only lost that part of my education I also lost all the social connections which go with it. I can't say it put a barrier between me and my family, that was already there. I was an effininate queer. But up to the last time I saw them that was one of the principal sources of criticism. I know this is the reason my nephews and nieces and my younger sister will never have any contact with me.

I had to struggle. I had no life experience at all. For a time I went right down, even living on the street. My GP, shortly after I ment him 20 odd years ago, reviewed my notes and told me I had had every opportuity but had thrown it away.

I have a lot of sympathy for your Mormon friend. I have equal sympathy for others in similar situations, Muslims, Hindus and such.

For my part, I can't even concieve of continuing to support what I knew and know to be utter lies. I can't ever support war. I know people are equal. That each of us has an exactly equal right to be here.

We can only hope that those with the intelegence and conscionce to know that these cults, religious, political, social can develop the courrage to take a stand for what they know to be the right thing to do.

It won't make a blind bit of difference, in the larger scheme of things. But it will, at least, bring these people the personal satisfaction that they have, as far as possible, done no harm.

[Just Kate]

I stand in contact with an American who is at the same time a Mormon. Born as a woman, he feels as a man, and wants to adapt his body to his soul. However, he does not dare to say this publicly and to act because he knows what means this: Excommunication, loss of his family which reveals him as youngster on the street of the homelessness; and all friendship within his cult.
The poor guy has already got over two attempted suicide, but has not found the courage to talk even not with his psychologist, about it. Only in the anonymity of the Internet and in friendship on the Internet, he can talk about it.
I find it sad that a church behaves so; the fact that a family, to God pretends to believe, to is such a thing able. Or what do you mean?

That is unfortunate, but it is not true everywhere.  I know several individuals by now who have fully transitioned and remain "un-excommunicated" members of the church.  To be excommunicated you need to hold and express views out of harmony with the teachings of the church in addition to acting on things that are considered to be transgressions.  Being transsexual isn't a transgression, neither is trying to fix it by transition - at least not everywhere and the old guard is changing more and more on this.  Still, it is sad when I hear someone having a rough time because of the church.

[Witch of Hope]

So, than lets read, what YOUR CHURCH, the LDS said in the Church Handbook of Instructions (Issue 1999, Volume 1, similiar to the 2006 Edition) about it:

For people who met the LDS AFTER their transition:

Persons Who Are Considering or Have Undergone a Transsexual Operation
Persons who are considering an elective transsexual operation should not be baptized. Persons who have already undergone an elective transsexual operation may be baptized if they are otherwise found worthy in an interview with the mission president or a priesthood leader he assigns. Such persons may not receive the priesthood or a temple recommend."Source PDF-File p. 43 (book p. 27)

Members with transsexual feelings and thoughts about an operation:

Transsexual Operation

Church leaders counsel against elective transsexual operations. If a member is contemplating such an operation, a presiding officer should inform him of this counsel and advise him that the operation may be cause for formal Church discipline. Bishops refer questions on specific cases to the stake president. He may direct questions to the Office of the First Presidency if necessary.

Request for Name Removal

If a member requests that his name be removed from the records of the Church, a disciplinary council may still be necessary if he has committed a serious transgression. Name removal should not be used as a substitute for or alternative to Church discipline. For instructions in these circumstances, see page 130. (PDF file p. 113, book p.96)

So, it shows us that your church is transphobic and members who did this are excommunicated immediately.

[MrsTorrance]

Deleted

[Just Kate]

So, it shows us that your church is transphobic and members who did this are excommunicated immediately.

I can believe the transphobic part, but the other is just hogwash.  That doesn't even happen a majority of the time.  In fact, usually the case is, if a TS can stomach being a member of a church with such rigid gender roles (and that member doesn't leave voluntarily) they remain members forever - true if the actually change sex they'll be excluded from doing certain things in the church, but if you are willing to stay in, they rarely boot you.

Those who get the boot normally like to espouse doctrines that are different than that taught and try to convince the church to change.  A TS in a highly gender-biased church like the LDS, would have to squash feelings of needing to change the church's doctrine (without proper authority) or they might find themselves getting in trouble.

Good thing LDS church membership is voluntary - in the end, if you don't like the doctrine, don't go, don't be a member.

[MrsTorrance]

Deleted

[Witch of Hope]

Good thing LDS church membership is voluntary - in the end, if you don't like the doctrine, don't go, don't be a member.

This is not so easy. For somebody who is active in a church this church means a lot. Besides, informal and amicable connections about the years have originated there. Depressions, attempted suicide and medication misuse come along with transsexual people with the Mormons and other churches which a conflict passes, between that what they are, and, as they should be suitable to the church doctrines. Not the person, the churches must change! By the way, I was with the Mormons, and was excommunicated in 1992 because of trans-sexuality. I can understand my MALE pen pal well.

[pebbles]

IA have you considered that your church only accepts you because of your non-transitioning status.

[Witch of Hope]

IA have you considered that your church only accepts you because of your non-transitioning status.

Thank Goddess for it, im not any more a member of this terrible cult of mormonism. Mormons believe that your gender(role) is eternal, and a (sex) change would be mock of God.

[Just Kate]

IA have you considered that your church only accepts you because of your non-transitioning status.

They accepted me during my transitioned status too.  I have two friends who have fully transitioned and are still accepted in church (yes the church knows about it, and yes they transitioned after being members).  Neither were excommunicated or disciplined - both are permitted to go to their gender specific meetings (like the FTM to priesthood with the guys, and the MTF goes to Relief Society with the girls.)

[Astarielle]

I want to toss this out there. It's part of a longer letter, by the way.

There may have been a time when I believed the grand lie that is the church, and I sincerely hope there was. The idea of having that kind of hope appeals to me, which is why I think I lied to myself for as long as I did. But the main reason is I couldn't bear to let certain people down. By rejecting the church, I would reject everything that the person I care for most in this world stood for. For allowing you to believe that lie, I blame only myself.

I don't believe that the gospel preached by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the pure gospel of Jesus Christ, if such a thing even existed. I will not speculate on the nature of God, however, no church that extends aid with one hand and with the other, rejects anyone who doesn't believe as they do can be the true gospel of a loving God. You may say the church is tolerant. But what tolerant organization spends thousands of dollars, and encourages it's members to do the same, on a movement to impress their beliefs on other people? From that day, I knew I could not remain a member of the LDS Church.

Do not mistake me. The lessons of the LDS church are plain and simple, at their core. Serve other people. Seek to better yourself. And of course, the Golden Rule. But they are not solely LDS. I will serve mankind in my way. If it were a matter of wanting to be free, I could live with the church. But if your freedom strays from the church in any way, then you are wrong? You may not have a gun to my head but you may as well, if I believed in the church.

[Witch of Hope]

They accepted me during my transitioned status too.  I have two friends who have fully transitioned and are still accepted in church (yes the church knows about it, and yes they transitioned after being members).  Neither were excommunicated or disciplined - both are permitted to go to their gender specific meetings (like the FTM to priesthood with the guys, and the MTF goes to Relief Society with the girls.)

I have three questions to you:

1. Are your friends and you LDS?

2. Did you know that you as member of this "church are 2nd class citizens (I will explain it later)

3. Do you know what is happen in this "Church" for those who are members of this "church" and want to make their transition?

To 2)

The Church handbook of Instructions (Manual for church leaders) said in his Volume 1, Issue 1999, and also issue 2006 :

Persons who are considering an elective transsexual operation should not be baptized. Persons who have already undergone an elective transsexual operation may be baptized if they are otherwise found worthy in an interview with the mission president or a priesthood leader he assigns. Such persons may not receive the priesthood or a temple recommend. (p.27)

That means, that you as female to male ts didn't receive the LDS Priesthood (which I mentioned "penishood), and both, female and male ts didn't receive a temple recommend, despite from the question of worthy.
And if you did told the missionaries before your baptismal interview, that you was trans, they must call the mission president which interviewed you many times before you may can be baptized. This is the rule.

To 3:

The same Handbook said:

Transsexual Operation

Church leaders counsel against elective transsexual operations. If a member is contemplating such an operation, a presiding officer should inform him of this counsel and advise him that the operation may be cause for formal Church discipline. Bishops refer questions on specific cases to the stake president. He may direct questions to the Office of the First Presidency if necessary. (p.95)

This mean EXCOMMUNICATION, and in most cases a house ban. And you can't be baptized again, unless you "repent" and change your gender role back as far as it is possible.

This "church" didn't accept transfolks in their congregations, if they are members. and after a transition, they are 2nd class members. Is that a "church" you always want to be?
Think of Lynn Stewart, she commit successful suecide. She was trans, and lost her life, cause her TBM family cast her out of the family, and she couldn't see her kids any more. And what is with the ts-homeless youth from mormon parents, who make them homeless cause they are trans?
Is that a church in which you can feel yourself comfortable?

[Just Kate]

"Church leaders counsel against elective transsexual operations. If a member is contemplating such an operation, a presiding officer should inform him of this counsel and advise him that the operation may be cause for formal Church discipline. Bishops refer questions on specific cases to the stake president. He may direct questions to the Office of the First Presidency if necessary. (p.95)"

"Counsel against" does not mean "strictly forbid".  "May be cause" does not mean "will result in"

I'm sorry, I know my arguments will mean nothing to you as you have your mind made up, but I can promise you there are members in good standing who have transitioned and are in the church.  They are a growing number as well.

[Witch of Hope]

"Counsel against" does not mean "strictly forbid".  "May be cause" does not mean "will result in"
I'm sorry, I know my arguments will mean nothing to you as you have your mind made up, but I can promise you there are members in good standing who have transitioned and are in the church.  They are a growing number as well.

When I was a member of the LDS, it was said to me that I must be excommunicated immediately (this was in 1992), and I could be never baptized AGAIN, except I would "be repent", and cancel everything again. This said bishop Mohr from Lübeck ward  in Schleswig - Holstein to me. TWO bishops, a stake president (everybody from Berlin) confirmed this statement. As said, this concerned me as a member.
The investigators who have her change behind themselves experience what stands in the manual.
This is why I do not believe your statement, above all if I read what writes Salt Lake Tribunes about transsexuals and the LDS. If, nevertheless, it should be right, it is not the standard, but the exception.

[Rayalisse]

I'm just glad I formally resigned my membership from the LDS church before i realized I was MtF  (basically self-excommunication).  I did go on a mission and got married in their temple prior to leaving the church and lived 30 years studying the doctrine and trying to reconcile my beliefs with what I had been told my entire life by my parents, family and church that their beliefs were the only version of the truth.  There was no other way.  Praying to a version of God who wanted me to be ultimately be unhappy didn't help my relationship with him or his "one true church" much either.  I had to find another way to deal with issues since obviously that god wasn't listening.

I feel sad for those trapped inside who are trying to reconcile their beliefs with an incompatible gender / sexuality from what the church accepts.  In fact, Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie  in his book "Mormon Doctrine" said basically that it would be better if they were never born, when referring to people who don't follow the straight/genetic gender.  (Also referring to adulterers too). 

Quite a harsh message and if you're a true believer I can imagine how badly that would feel when you're told that God does not approve of who you are inside.  Hopefully your friend can find some perspective or find a God who does love him for who he is.

Cheers!
Rayalisse

PS As far as what Interalia says above, she may be right that the church's views on transgender issues may be evolving.  I just read a great article about the changing views of Mormonism while confirming my reference to Mormon Doctrine above...
http://www.cesnur.org/2007/bord_forsberg1.htm