Another closet?

[MaggieB]

I am living in my desired gender and am recognized as a female in all of my life encounters now for several years but lately a new wrinkle has developed for me. As a late transitioner, I was and am married to a woman who is not a lesbian but I do identify as one. We get along well as close friends but avoid sexual discussions because of the conflict. I am not looking for a new partner but am quite lonely and in need of some intimacy. Even holding hands with a woman would be nice.

That is not my issue though in this post. My issue is that I find I am now dealing with conflicts over just being a lesbian. I fell pressure to be straight from society. The few people that do know us assume that I am straight and those who know my past that I tell that I am a lesbian are totally confused.

I am all too aware that one cannot change one's sexual orientation but one of my transwomen friends who is my age has gone from a 30 plus year marriage to dating men. So she did it and I thought so should I. I got so wrapped up in trying to fit in again, that I tried to imagine myself with men in bed. It didn't work.

My quandary is that I feel just like an adolescent lesbian who is sheepish to come out. If I do, I will embarrass my wife. And really what is the point for me anyway? I will never act on it much less ever meet another lesbian. I suppose it is a matter of being comfortable in my own skin yet again on another socially explosive characteristic. Perhaps, I should just get used to pretending I am straight in social situations. Another closet?

[Vanessa_yhvh]

I'm a bit confused. You are perceived as two straight married women?

Either way, if you're committed to a monogamous relationship with your wife, but she withholds physical intimacy (regardless of circumstance), that situation would seem to have some problems that are likely to grow over time.

[MaggieB]

I'm a bit confused. You are perceived as two straight married women?

Either way, if you're committed to a monogamous relationship with your wife, but she withholds physical intimacy (regardless of circumstance), that situation would seem to have some problems that are likely to grow over time.

Yes, we are perceived as two older women sharing a house. Some probably think we are lesbians but we do nothing to foster that idea. It is odd for me when we meet men in stores who chat and flirt with me or my wife. Plus, we never watch any TV or movie that has lesbian characters so everything is hetero and I get tired of never seeing my kind. 

I am expecting to have a certain resignation set in where I no longer want or need to be touched like she has. She says most women at her age don't want intimacy anyway so I should get used to it.

[Melody Maia]

Yes, we are perceived as two older women sharing a house. Some probably think we are lesbians but we do nothing to foster that idea. It is odd for me when we meet men in stores who chat and flirt with me or my wife. Plus, we never watch any TV or movie that has lesbian characters so everything is hetero and I get tired of never seeing my kind. 

I am expecting to have a certain resignation set in where I no longer want or need to be touched like she has. She says most women at her age don't want intimacy anyway so I should get used to it.

I don't think what "most" women your age want matters. Only what you want or need from your marriage. Pretty cold response to an important question for you. Did you discuss how intimacy would be handled between you to during/after transition?

Believe me, I am not judging. I am in the same boat as you, just half as many years married. Fifteen years of marriage, an 8 year old son, a non-lesbian wife and me attracted to women. Right now, the wife and I are taking it a day at a time. I am worried how things will develop once my male self starts disappearing physically and Melody really takes hold.

[Janet_Girl]

My ex and I went through that dance for 10 years, and I was not transitioning.  She once told me that she was not a lesbian.  And we eventually separated.  And now nether of us have anyone in their life.

I want someone to love, hold, cuddle and kiss me.  But I will have to wait.

[MaggieB]

Melody,
My transition occurred over a ten year period and when I declared my true gender, intimacy was over. It is not a subject for discussion ever. We stay together because we found a way to be friends and put aside all trans and lesbian issues. That is far easier said than done. I still care for her and she for me which does make it possible to live together. It is in our shared financial interests too. The legacy of my life battling GID that became a crisis twenty five years ago was that I could only be self employed. Dealing with male supervisors became completely impossible for me. As a result, I depend on her and she depends on me. However, during the transition, we had two years of hell.

[gata123pr]

That is what is waiting for me
A straight wife married to a lesbian mtf

[Colleen Ireland]

I am expecting to have a certain resignation set in where I no longer want or need to be touched like she has.

Maggie, this statement stood out for me.  For the simple reason that it could be my "denial statement" of the past 30 years with only a minor revision:

I am expecting to have a certain resignation set in where I no longer want or need to live as a woman.

Well, that didn't happen.  I finally got to a point where I MUST be who I am, regardless of the consequences.  And the more I get into it, and the more conversations my wife and I have, the more certain I am that our marriage will not last.  And that's sad.  But I think giving up who I am (as I've done for most of my life so far) would be far sadder, and I think that would ultimately go for both of us.  I think if we do separate, we both stand a far greater chance at real happiness, and after all, that's what we're really talking about here, isn't it?  From what you've posted, it sounds like your marriage isn't really a marriage anymore - just a close friendship and shared accommodations.  Well, that could describe my marriage for most of the past 3 decades, and I just can't live like that any more.  I need to be the woman I am, and I need also to be a sexual being.  And I'm pretty sure, like you, I'm a lesbian.  Or maybe bi.  So be it.  I've lived too long in the shadows.  I've denied myself for far too long.  If that's selfish of me, well, it is what it is.  I can't help it any more.  It's just too painful.  Colleen must dance in the sunshine before it's all over.

[MaggieB]

Colleen, I wish all the best for you and your wife. Going through transition is about the hardest thing that any marriage has to deal with. I'd put it right up there with a major life crisis like cancer or loss of a child. The very terms that we entered into the marriage changed. My wife expected to be married to a man but she didn't. I pretended for some years but in the long run, like you, I could not continue to deny myself.

Yes, it is true that I am playing around with another form of denial but it is from the standpoint of a lesser problem. I can and do live a genuine life as a woman, every day, every night. My marriage transformed when I got my new birth certificate and passport. They were the last straws in what was once a passionate, romantic and dedicated relationship.  Grieving for what was lost has pretty much been finished and while it took months and months, I finally stopped hoping that she would accept me as her spouse again.

When we were confronted with the alternative of leaving each other, the idea of our both living in poverty or worse seemed ludicrous. So we stay and work to find other ways to live in peace together. Being 59 and knowing that my sexual days are behind me is very hard to cope with but then again so is aging. So is loss of vitality and the respect that our insane culture only bestows on the young and vital.

I do wish that I could just put it all behind me and accept the life as a celibate crone with a lesbian past. It sure would be easier and make sleeping alone not so lonely.

[Shang]

You can be 59 and sexually active.  It's no longer that unusual and using that as a reason to not end an unhappy relationship isn't really fair to either of you.  People of both sexes are enjoying sex later and later in life and 59 is really not that old.  You can still find a relationship will you can be fulfilled emotionally, physically, and mentally.

If you want you can tell people you're straight out in public if it'll make your life easier.  You don't have to actively hide being an lesbian, but you don't have to be overly open about it either.

Good luck with everything!

[Colleen Ireland]

You don't have to actively hide being an lesbian, but you don't have to be overly open about it either.

Good luck with everything!

That's the thing, and I second the wish for luck.  My best friend happens to be gay.  He hates it.  He would far rather live a "normal" life as head of a "normal" household, with 3 kids and a wife, and he HAD that once, but the woman he married fell in love with another woman and moved out.  So now he lives what to me looks like a very lonely existence - he's not openly out, and doesn't have anyone in his life, and hasn't for years.  He's 60.  Now, to me, it seems like he could live quite happily and have gay liasons all he wants, or find someone to live with, but not have to come out at work if he didn't want to.  Whereas I (and all of us here), if we want to live as who we are, need to announce it to the world, and maybe give up large sections of our lives to do so.  Ouch!  I'd much rather be gay than trans.  At least in the transition period.

However.  I hear you, and what I hear is that you are worn out from your long struggle.  You wish it could be otherwise, and in fact suffer pain in knowing that there are things you cannot let yourself experience, for whatever reasons.  And you don't feel you have the struggle in you to struggle against this new closet.  I hear that.  But consider - at 59, you are not "old", or if you do consider yourself "old", that is something you could overcome, but you need to start between your ears.  And that, my dear, is all I'm going to say on the subject.  And I do wish the very best for you, and for us all.

[Nero]

Just to add to all the great comments - you may be a woman of 'a certain age' but you have not had the history they do. You have not had time to explore your sexuality as a woman like they have had. Coming out as a lesbian and exploring your sexuality as a woman is probably as important to you and your development as it is for younger women.

[lilacwoman]

Maggie you aren't a lesbian as lesbians only become lesbians once they get involved with other lesbians.  Fantasizing doesn't count or else I'm rich and live in a palace.

You are enjoying the comfort of the closet rather than risking the outside so please spare us the martyr speeches.

[justmeinoz]

Maggie you aren't a lesbian as lesbians only become lesbians once they get involved with other lesbians.  Fantasizing doesn't count or else I'm rich and live in a palace.

Does that mean  people are asexual until they actually have a sexual relationship? 

Just because there is no sex happening doesn't mean you don't have an orientation, just that you haven't acted on it. What about people who are physically incapable of intercourse due to an illness, do they become Neutrois?

Sorry, but that is not a helpful or logical statement.

[April Dawne]

The way I see it, if people on the outside see you as a pair of friends sharing a home and don't know you are married; and if the the marriage is pretty much only on paper now and there is no want of intimacy from her.... then why don't you just go get a girlfriend?

If your marriage has been reduced to what appears to be a rather strained friendship where you are cordial to each other but can't talk about anything sexual or intimate... then is she really going to give two sh*ts if you go out and have fun? Why would it be embarrassing for your "wife" if to the outside world she is not your wife? Sounds to me like you are boxing yourself in to "do the honorable thing" out of some sort of shame or guilt you carry at the position you feel you have forced your "wife" into.

Have your fun. If you are only staying together to share living expenses, then what's the problem anyway?

[rejennyrated]

Well for what it is worth, as a bisexual woman I have found that my sexual orientation can and does change drifting continually between the poles of almost entirely lesbian to almost entirely straight. That demands a certain dedication at times if you are in a monogamous relationship because basically about half the time it doesn't give me what I want, and then like you I have the choice of acting on my needs or suppressing them for the sake of my partner's feelings.

In the past I have done both. Neither option works that well for me. As I have got older we have started to explore the possibility of having an expanded relationship in which there are three partners. So far however we have not found the right man.

Anyway my point is, 1.) sexuality actually can sometimes change and 2.) whether it does or not, you should try to find a workable solution to your current needs because life is too short to end up stuck in a closet and full of regrets.

It sounds to me like both you and your wife are clinging on to a relationship which has in fact died for fear of stepping into the unknown. The result is neither of you is getting what you need. If you can managed to break out, then maybe she too will feel freer to find new love. Perhaps you both need to find the courage to move on.

[Cindy]

I think I see another issue in this and similar circumstances. And please these are my opinions not dogmatic statements.

Marriage is a commitment to each other. No matter what happens. OK I'll take physical abuse out of the contract.You and your wife married to love and support each other. Love waxes and wanes. Sexual activity waxes and wanes, in any marriage. She has been strong for you to be a woman, when she thought she was marrying a man. She I presume from your post has not had extra marital affairs, why should you?
You both made a vow to be faithful. I personally believe if you make that vow it is kept. I do not see any fine print saying but only if : blah blah. And I have to admit that your wife would have a massive if only clause to have an affair. She after all thought you were male, and she has made it clear she is not interested in a lesbian relationship with you.

I can understand the sexual frustration you have  BUT they are a result of your decision. YOU made that decision.

The scenario that may work is if you encouraged your wife to have a male lover, and that you totally accepted the situation, to a point that he could be with her in the home, whatever, as she desired. I'm of course unclear about how this would go down, after all she thought she had a male husband.

Possibly she would then be amiable to you having a lesbian lover.

But the marriage that she has with you appears to be important to her. So anything that may further damage that could well precipitate a divorce, separation or whatever.

I realise my last comments will be judgmental, and I apologize. Am I correct in suggesting that the situation was created by you. You are the one who have taken advantage of the marriage, you did not declare to being TG prior to marriage. She has hung in there with you. Now you want some cake to eat.

My apologies if I have offended you. But, Ya, But.

Cindy

[lilacwoman]

Does that mean  people are asexual until they actually have a sexual relationship? 
Just because there is no sex happening doesn't mean you don't have an orientation, just that you haven't acted on it. What about people who are physically incapable of intercourse due to an illness, do they become Neutrois?
Sorry, but that is not a helpful or logical statement.

yep, people are asexual until they have a sexual relationship.   
if they were totally physically incapable of any interraction at all they would be Neutrois...only by actually directly involving another person in your openly stated plans can you be sure of what you are.  Like I say I'm sat here telling myeself I've a million dollars in my bank...but if I go ask the bank manager he'll say sorry you've got three hundered dollars to your name.
fat people are fat until they diet even if they wish they could fit the smaller clothes.

[MaggieB]

It is true that we both are still faithful to our marriage vows of 25 years. We both still love each other and are trying to cope with a very difficult situation. My wife is not interested in sex with other men at all. She indicates that she finds real men repugnant at this age. All they want is to get serviced and have someone wash their clothes and clean their houses and make dinner. No thanks, she says. In that way, she prefers me and says she gained more than she lost.

However, the terms are that I must participate in denial of self. She and I have discussed me seeking a lover and I can see the anguish in her eyes. She would be devastated and left alone. I care for her far too much for that. That makes my choice to stay with her out of love.  To her credit, she stayed with me for years and years while her female friends pressured her to dump me during the time when I was so depressed about my gender issues that I could not work. Should I dump her now? Not fair.

Maggie you aren't a lesbian as lesbians only become lesbians once they get involved with other lesbians.  Fantasizing doesn't count or else I'm rich and live in a palace.

You are enjoying the comfort of the closet rather than risking the outside so please spare us the martyr speeches.

What a relief! I can tell my wife that neither of us "qualify" as lesbians now even if we make love again. It is interesting to know that ones sexual orientation is determined by someone other than one's self. In fact, by this enlightened definition, two virgin women who have sex together are not lesbians until one has sex with a "card carrying" lesbian. Then instantly they both are? Or is it after they have sex again? Curious minds want to know.

And yes, I enjoy the closet so much that I exposed myself to scrutiny and ridicule just to discuss it.

OK, enough satire. You weren't serious, were you? I mean really, George Rekers could use logic like that. It was really funny and if it was meant so, thanks!


I think that I got what I expected here in this post. Thanks to all who were supportive. I tend to "overshare", often a characteristic of writers. Put me in front of a keyboard and the words flow. I'm not going to apologize for that.

[Cruelladeville]

This caught my eye recently...

/lea-t-naked-photos *

http://www.styleite.com/media/lea-t/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/aug/01/fashion-transgender

The key part being... at the end of the article:

Lea, who says she "cannot allow [herself] the luxury of being in love", is pessimistic about her chances of finding happiness with someone else. Those transsexuals who do enter into serious relationships, she says, often do so by keeping their past from their partners.

(true in my case)

"They live as hypocrites; it is a variation on solitude," she said. "We transsexuals are born and grow up alone. After the operation we are born again, but once again alone. And we die alone. It is the price we pay."

Though I don't believe myself to be a blatant 'hypocrite' as I'm not trans - betwixt traveling - to and fro places so to speak....

I arrived over twenty years ago...

I have a female birth-certificate, passport, driving licence, bank account, identity...a female body, vagina, breasts, brain, mind body and soul... I earn an income as a woman... I'm hormonally female too... though my genes will be a teller of quirks for sure...

But i was blessed/cursed with an androgen AIS problemo.... so was never that conventional.

And though missing ovaries no different to my step-mother in fact, hers out due to a cancer scare... and many natal women when they hit 50 are menopausal and on HRT too... so I'm just like them.

Even the NHS treat me as normal female, as I was asked to go for my first breast-scan as I'm now over 50....which I dutifully went along and did....lol

So whom am I exactly taking liberties with?

Though I have an interesting past....*s->-bleeped-<-s*





* Link removed, violation of rule 4