For those who think it's okay for TG to be a mental disorder

[Izumi]

With respect, I think you're missing the issue.

GID is not caused by any single factor. There are no causes which have been found to affect even a majority.

This is a situation which can only really be identified by its symptoms. Even then, there are so many variations in symptoms, severity and so on. Some GID sufferers are sexually attracted to those of their birth sex, others the opposite. Some say their attractions have changed after treatment other not. Some seek full treatement, others partial, others almost none. Some cope with it, some become desperate and very depressed.

Many of us report that our awareness started very young, about 4 years is quite common for those born male, a bit older for those born female. Others report their awareness came much later. Again, there is no consistance in how each of these groups experience their GID or how well they cope.

Sadly, US psychiatry seems to like tidy labels. They like to have a badge which they can pin, even when that badge is clearly preposterus.

If I lived in the US, even though I am in my mid 50s, happily married, reasonably stable and coping well with my GID, I would be subject to enforced incarceration in a mental hospital, being tied up, drugged,  then enforced treatment at the discresion of some psychiatrist.

That is the issue.

they would only lock you up if your a danger to yourself or others, that true for anyone though.  Also, the more research is done the more it points to being TS as a genetic defect, kind of a mild form of intersex, and not something triggered externally, it wont matter because its not curable without genetic alteration on the cellular level which is beyond our technology.  You talk about GID as if its the problem, its not the root cause of GID as more and more science proves is the inability of cells to properply process hormones or receive them, androgens that dont bind properly to cells.   This is extremely crucial during child gestation where bases of stem cells create what is your skin internal organs and brain.   Each cell might have varying tolerance to the defect which is why maybe your body came out male but brain cells and tissues stayed female and vice versa for FTMs.  They even had a test to swab the skin and found who was TS and who wasnt with a high degree of accuracy yet not perfect.  So its a physical defect which symptoms come out as mental, however it has nothing to do with chemical imbalances in the brain and instead has more to do with brain structure during the birth process.

Let me give you an example:
Wilson's disease or hepatolenticular degeneration is an autosomal recessive genetic disorder in which copper accumulates in tissues; this manifests as neurological or psychiatric symptoms and liver disease.

so a physical genetic defect is causing psychiatric problems.  It is treatable as well, yet people with Wilson's dont go to the luney bin now do they?  So the treatment for TS also prevents GID and other Psychiatric symptoms, no your not crazy.  I prefer to think of the whole as, living with TS, rather then being TS, people seem to identify saying I am a transexual... never really understood that, I am just a woman suffering for TS~  and I AM suffering from it.

[Just Kate]

It has been argued here that *my body functions normally, so my brain is disordered* 

How do we know the body is functioning normally?   

It is believed that brain gender is determined about a month before physical gender.  Wouldn't that indicate the body failed to conform to brain gender and therefore the body isn't functioning normally?

No, no no and no! This is a terrible misconception perpetuated by TG's to justify the idea of a broken body rather than a broken brain.  The sperm carries and X or a Y and the egg carries an X.  Depending on what sperm gets to the egg determines one's sex.  The existence of a Y causes definitive changes in the embryo's development turning non-sexed organs into either Wolfian or Mamarian ducts.  Those form testes or ovaries respectively.  Testes then produce testosterone which forms the sexual dimorphic sections of the brain and the body in a testosterone specific way.  Same for the hormones produced by the ovaries - they start to affect sexually dimorphic features of the body and the brain.  Note I am keeping out intersexed out of the discussion as the existence of extra chromosomes can mix things up a bit.

If I am XY and have no weird chromosomes messing with my sexual development and my body develops in a male body and it functions correctly and consistently with my XY, I can be about damned sure that my body is male, was meant to be male and functions appropriately.  Now the brain, more complex... some stuff can happen to it both environmental and biological that can mess up its perception.

Essentially, having a fully healthy male body and no inconsistent chromosomes, I can be sure I was intended to be male, but my brain didn't get the message - not the other way around.  If we want to go into more detail, I'll reach into my textbooks and other research materials to give more specific genetic detail.  In the end, I can transition to fix my issues - which is fine, but I won't think for a moment my body is the problem - it is just the best available treatment.

[cynthialee]

Gotta agree with interalia on this one.

[spacial]

 I'm getting the feeling we're arguing in circles here. My own posts on this thread, in particular, are simply repeating the same point.

In that, I am contributing very little.

I wasn't going to add any more, until a few posts ago, some started talking about a magic pill. Yuck! 

Thank you for being so patient with me. 

[cynthialee]

I think speculation of a pill to cure the disorder so to speak is entirely in order.
Some day it may very well be possible for a treatment that "cures" the brain instead of the body could be available. Although I doubt such a cure would actually be a cure for someone who has an established gender identity.

[Steph]

No, no no and no! This is a terrible misconception perpetuated by TG's to justify the idea of a broken body rather than a broken brain.  The sperm carries and X or a Y and the egg carries an X.  Depending on what sperm gets to the egg determines one's sex.  The existence of a Y causes definitive changes in the embryo's development turning non-sexed organs into either Wolfian or Mamarian ducts.  Those form testes or ovaries respectively.  Testes then produce testosterone which forms the sexual dimorphic sections of the brain and the body in a testosterone specific way.  Same for the hormones produced by the ovaries - they start to affect sexually dimorphic features of the body and the brain.  Note I am keeping out intersexed out of the discussion as the existence of extra chromosomes can mix things up a bit.

If I am XY and have no weird chromosomes messing with my sexual development and my body develops in a male body and it functions correctly and consistently with my XY, I can be about damned sure that my body is male, was meant to be male and functions appropriately.  Now the brain, more complex... some stuff can happen to it both environmental and biological that can mess up its perception.

Essentially, having a fully healthy male body and no inconsistent chromosomes, I can be sure I was intended to be male, but my brain didn't get the message - not the other way around.  If we want to go into more detail, I'll reach into my textbooks and other research materials to give more specific genetic detail.  In the end, I can transition to fix my issues - which is fine, but I won't think for a moment my body is the problem - it is just the best available treatment.

Very well explained interalia.  We use our brains to make decisions and when we are making these decisions we believe our brains to be normal.  So if I think my brain is normal and see my perfectly formed and functioning male body as not conforming then obviously somethings a miss.  My body developed as it was supposed to so why does my brain see it differently, after all I think my brain is normal.  Obviously there's something a miss here.  Hmmm maybe, just maybe my brain is not so normal. <Shrug>

Steph

[Nicky]

No, no no and no! This is a terrible misconception perpetuated by TG's to justify the idea of a broken body rather than a broken brain.  The sperm carries and X or a Y and the egg carries an X.  Depending on what sperm gets to the egg determines one's sex.  The existence of a Y causes definitive changes in the embryo's development turning non-sexed organs into either Wolfian or Mamarian ducts.  Those form testes or ovaries respectively.  Testes then produce testosterone which forms the sexual dimorphic sections of the brain and the body in a testosterone specific way.  Same for the hormones produced by the ovaries - they start to affect sexually dimorphic features of the body and the brain.  Note I am keeping out intersexed out of the discussion as the existence of extra chromosomes can mix things up a bit.

If I am XY and have no weird chromosomes messing with my sexual development and my body develops in a male body and it functions correctly and consistently with my XY, I can be about damned sure that my body is male, was meant to be male and functions appropriately.  Now the brain, more complex... some stuff can happen to it both environmental and biological that can mess up its perception.

Essentially, having a fully healthy male body and no inconsistent chromosomes, I can be sure I was intended to be male, but my brain didn't get the message - not the other way around.  If we want to go into more detail, I'll reach into my textbooks and other research materials to give more specific genetic detail.  In the end, I can transition to fix my issues - which is fine, but I won't think for a moment my body is the problem - it is just the best available treatment.

I think this is too simplistic, i've been thinking about it a bit since my last post. The body and brain are too plastic. It could very well be that trans people are perfectly natural variations regardless of xy or xx chromosomes. I have gene pathways built into me that when fuled by a different mix of hormones activate and cause me to feminise. I don't think you can say I was supposed to have a male body, as I contain the patterns for both male and female bodies. I don't think me wanting a female body is inconsistant with my chromosomes as the information is there to create a female body.

We talk about the seperation of mind and body, but really it is all part of one biological system.  They are part of the same machine. I think it is silly to say just one part is disfunctional when really the whole system is. My mind is great, my body is great, they just don't go together so well in the current format.

So I don't think this can be seen as a purely mental issue, or a purely physical issue. I don't think we can say it is purely psychological when some of the psychological issues that arise seem to be caused by our physiology and neurology. Similalry I don't think we can say it is just a physical issue, as it obviously impacts on our mental health.

Lots of mental illnesses can have physical causes - like clinical depression.  They don't usually arise from thought alone, though sometimes they do but in those cases it ends up affecting your internal chemistry. My treatment for depression consists of drugs that changes my physical chemistry and also purely mental thought activity. So from that perspective I guess it is ok to call the dysfunctional feelings we have as trans people a mental illness like depression. We have to remember that 'standard' treatment is not just a body change but we really need to change our mental state too. We have to adjust mentally.

There is a conversation going on between our concious and uncious minds and physical selves. They need to be taught the same language.  I'm for more holistic thinking on this.

[Steph]

This is getting interesting

The thing is all these conclusions, suppositions, speculations, theories, arguments, points of view, feelings, beliefs, conversation (I think you get my point ) is rooted in the brain, and all this is based on information that is received and processed by the brain.  It's a brain thing.

Are we still on topic

Steph

[Julie Marie]

How about this... If you are TG and believe GID belongs in the DSM then you are mentally disordered.  If you are TG and believe GID does not belong in the DSM then you are not mentally disordered.  If you fall into the former category, you cannot tell any other TG they are mentally disordered if they fall into the latter category, nor can you consider yourself an authority about anyone who falls into the latter category, nor can you speak for them.

Honestly, when I started this thread I thought most, if not all, would realize the damage that can be done when society believes you are mentally disordered but some here hold on to that diagnosis like a security blanket.  And that's fine, just don't lump me or anyone who wants to shed the stigma in with you.  I believe removing homosexuality from the DSM was critical in advancing gays and lesbians as normal people.  Judge Walker must have thought so too because he mentioned it in his ruling on Prop 8 and now gays and lesbians have been given the right to marry in California, just like all the other normal people.  I think TGs should be considered normal too so things like passing ENDA will happen.

Enjoying the same rights as everyone else isn't about biology, it's about social perception.  I plan on moving back into the world I was cast out of when the world found out I was TG and I plan on doing that by shedding any and all stigmas that caused me to be thrown out in the first place.  Anyone who wishes to join me, you are free to do so.

[Steph]

... nor can you speak for them.

... I thought most, if not all, would realize the damage that can be done when society believes you are mentally disordered but some here hold on to that diagnosis like a security blanket.  And that's fine, just don't lump me or anyone who wants to shed the stigma in with you.  I believe removing homosexuality from the DSM was critical in advancing gays and lesbians as normal people.  Judge Walker must have thought so too because he mentioned it in his ruling on Prop 8 and now gays and lesbians have been given the right to marry in California, just like all the other normal people.  I think TGs should be considered normal too so things like passing ENDA will happen.

Enjoying the same rights as everyone else isn't about biology, it's about social perception.  I plan on moving back into the world I was cast out of when the world found out I was TG and I plan on doing that by shedding any and all stigmas that caused me to be thrown out in the first place.  Anyone who wishes to join me, you are free to do so.

With all due respect Julie this seems to be a regional problem, a problem which many of us fortunately don't have to endure. and I don't agree that removing something that is obviously benefiting many to appease those few whose civil rights are being denied.  Civil Code is the thing that needs to be changed where you are, and your constitutional rights changed or enforced.  It was right to remove homosexuality from the DSM as any modern thinker knows that it is a lifestyle preference not a medical condition.

From Wikipedia

Homosexuality is romantic or sexual attraction or behavior among members of the same sex/gender. As a sexual orientation, homosexuality refers to "an enduring pattern of or disposition to experience sexual, affectional, or romantic attractions primarily to" people of the same sex; "it also refers to an individual's sense of personal and social identity based on those attractions, behaviors expressing them, and membership in a community of others who share them."

Nothing medical there.


I never left the world, I was never cast out of it, and I live and work in it, and will soon be married in it and happily so.

Steph

[MeghanAndrews]

I don't know, I used to think growing up "if only I felt like all the other guys, why do I feel like this? Why am I a girl inside and they have these dude things going on? I just want to be normal and not like this!!!" I don't remember feeling like I was born in the wrong body, I remember feeling like my brain was what was wrong. I have never really felt like I was born in the wrong body. The problem was that society didn't perceive me the way that I perceived myself. So, I took steps to correct that. Maybe some people would call me insane and throw me in a psych ward. Others would kill me for it. Some would high five me. I do know that I'm happy now and don't think too much about whether it's my brain or my body. I do feel very normal now that I am moving through the world being seen for who I have always known I was. That's pretty cool to me. Oh, and that's why I'm always smiling too (PS, Steph, it's so good to see you again, I didn't know you were back! Look, it's me! Everything's good here! (Sorry for hijacking the post JulieMarie, you know I love you   )) Meghan

[Tammy Hope]

I think TGs should be considered normal too so things like passing ENDA will happen.

As I pointed out back on page one, even if one were to concede the point of being mentally disorder, having a mental disorder is NOT a bar to marriage, or housing, or employment, or anything else by definition.

the only time it comes into play is if the disorder makes one dangerous in some way. (actual danger, like injury or destruction of property, not just someone gets butthurt)

We don't have to be "normal" (in terms of the presence of a mental disorder or not) for ENDA to be a logical and valid law. That's not to say someone won't make an irrational argument against it on those grounds, but there will ALWAYS be irrational arguments against us.

We may be disordered, we may not - but IF we are, whether or not we are still doesn't make us second class citizens. those who suffer from depression or whatever are not second class, why would we be?

There are surely troubling aspects to being classed as "mentally disordered" - and there are troubling implications of being removed and classified as "normal" (clearly, we are NOT normal pre-transition, though I tend to agree we can become "normal" if we have the resources to fully transition)

I don't agree with the logic that we must obtain the LABEL "normal" in order to manipulate society.

(And i should pause here and say that obviously there is no real "normal" but there is such a thing as a statistical norm and deviation from that norm)

We are NOT normal, and forcing people to call us normal doesn't make it so.

In fact, I'd argue that we are a more sympathetic demographic if people understand that we are NOT normal, but are suffering from a condition not of our own making. the danger in being considered normal is being accused of making a choice to, basically, "mutilate ourselves" for no good reason (as our harshest critics suggest).

The false perception we most need to defeat is that this is a "chosen lifestyle" and we could easily choose not to transition if we wanted to. That is far more damaging, IMO, than the perception that we have a mental disorder. i would go so far as to argue that if a cisgender person concedes that we suffer from a mental disorder and STILL wants to oppress us, that the person who feels that way is unwinnable to our position - and thus of no concern in terms of altering public opinion.

Ultimately then, whether or not it is described as a mental disorder comes down to what is the most scientifically precise way to describe our abnormal condition. If that is "mental disorder" - so be it. if it is otherwise, it needs to be changed.

[insideontheoutside]

I think that this is all way too "gray area" and it's only recently that more scientific research has been happening on this type of subject. I've seen some fascinating stuff about things that can happen in utero to actually change the brain of an individual in regards to gender ... extra hormones in the mother's body, certain chemicals ... lots of things. I would place a monetary bet that if my brain was scanned and then studied against that of a "normal" female, there would be some anomalies. For over a decade I've been heavily involved with alternative medicine and other modalities besides just regular medical doctors. I've baffled every acupuncturist I've been to because, as they say, I have the energy pattern of a male. Chinese medicine is all about the energy, meridians in the body, that sort of thing. The first time it happened my acupuncturist came right out and told me he'd never seen anything like it in all the years he'd been working. My most recent acupuncturist told me I was "flipped" lol. Is this "scientific" evidence, no, but all I'm saying is there's more than meets the eye going on  in some cases and so my opinions today have been formed through observation and experience.

Also, think about the era that the first psychological diagnosis of transsexual came out ... we're talking turn of the century era here (actually I think it was a German guy in around 1910 but I could be off on that). Many societies of the world have clear roles defined for males and females ... and it's been that way for thousands of years. I can totally see how a society set up like that can then call ANY deviation from what appears to be normal, a disorder ... or a disease.

Personally, I reject diagnosis like that just as I reject labels but I've come to that decision over many years of living life and living in my body. So no, I personally do not say that people who feel they are not the gender of the body they were born into have a mental disorder. But I'm not the one handing out the diagnosis either (that would be the psychologists and doctors).

As a side note, I've also been given these disorders over time (which I also rejected):
Social Anxiety Disorder
Panic Disorder
Attention Deficit Disorder
Gender Identity Disorder

Probably a few more too, but eh, screw it. If I really believed in all that garbage THAT would put me in a padded cell, not how I view myself or what I like to do in the bedroom with consenting adults.

And for all of them the psychologist or doctor was right there with a pen and a prescription pad. Disorders are big business, folks and the more there are and the more people have them the more medical costs and prescriptions can happen too.

[Izumi]

If you look at other medical cases it becomes clear that GID is a symptom of a much bigger genetic disorder.  I give you the example of an XY female, yeah thats right, a XY but due to a genetic defect in the dna she has total immunity to testosterone, only estrogen effects cells.  She develops into a female appearance inside and out, except for reproductive which is typically varies, but mainly internally.   She suffers no effects from GID even though she is genetically male, because her brain and outside appearance are both female.

Being TS the same as the intersex disorder mentioned above instead of all cells rejecting or limiting androgen binding, only various ones do, it seems the brain is a one area mostly effected.  So, the GID is caused by a defect in the DNA.   To say TG is a mental illness is incorrect, its a genetic defect which cause psychiatric symptoms rather then physical ones, which a lot of genetic defects do, for example wilson's.   

Are we insane, no, the GID is treatable and in many cases curable.  Are we different, yes, we are not normal, we were born with a gene variant that only 1/20000 in the population have.  I think the addition of the exit clause is the perfect solution, while we cannot cure TS (which is a genetic defect), we can treat the symptoms of it and cure GID, therefore removing us as mental patients of any kind.

You might not like the term mental illness, but if you have GID, yeah you are mentally ill.  The reason for that being that 19999 other people dont have GID, having developed relatively normally and being comfortable in their bodies. 

While it might be important to some to not have it in the DSM, typically these people have lots of money and can afford treatment, others need it in there to help in subsidized payments, if its removed from there then unless its re-classified as medical you will not be given any money to help with your GID, and thats very elitist in its thinking, hurting other people so you can feel good about yourself not being mentally ill.  We can win our rights anyway on the simple argument of medical fact, if anyone really bothered to try, however the gay issue clouds what could be an open and shut case for TS people. 

Also, may i point out, if its not an illness and there is nothing wrong with you why the hell are you taking medication in the from of HRT and getting surgeries? Normally well people dont opt to take drugs that can possible lead to blood clots and kill them..... think about that one... 

[Fencesitter]

Also, think about the era that the first psychological diagnosis of transsexual came out ... we're talking turn of the century era here (actually I think it was a German guy in around 1910 but I could be off on that).

I think you mean Magnus Hirschfeld, he then talked about "transvestites" but used that term as an umbrella term such as "transgender" is used today and he also described transsexuality as such.

Interisting to read your alternative medicine experience with the "male energy"

[pebbles]

I'm more inclined to think that in the USA's lack of coverage by insurance companies is due to the draconian nature of the USA health system rather than anything associated with the TS condition itself. Hell they deny child diabetics there insulin.
Even if GID had an innate physical cause that could be seen painted on our bodies from birth they would deny treatment.

I'm able to accept that it is my brain that's technically in the wrong not my body but that's irrelevant if the conflict between the two isn't resolved both would have died. No sense in begin "right" and dead.

[juliekins]

Okay, so it seems if you are unhappy with your body that's a condition of the mind, not the body. Therefore it's a mental disorder. Right?

The 98 pound weakling who starts working out with weights, takes (legal) supplements, changes his diet and grows to a 200 pound mountain of muscles and is now happy with his looks.

The flat chested woman who has BA and is now happy with her looks.

The "ugly duckling" who has facial plastic surgery, laminates on the teeth, hair transplants and now looks beautiful is now happy.

Are these people mentally disordered too?

[spacial]

I think speculation of a pill to cure the disorder so to speak is entirely in order.
Some day it may very well be possible for a treatment that "cures" the brain instead of the body could be available. Although I doubt such a cure would actually be a cure for someone who has an established gender identity.

With respect cynthia, this is a lot of hogwash.

It belongs with those NASA sicientists who talk about 'When they brealk the light speed barrier', or the Cambridge scientists who think they can eventually travel in time.

In the 60s, I recall a slick advert on TV asking for donations to some cancer research. I remember because I used my pocket money to buy a 6d postal order. Almost identical adverts are being broadcast now, suggesting that a cure for cancer is almost here. More money has been donated to cancer research since 1948 than all other charitable cause put together. There is no cure.

But what is so utterly astonishing is the way so called scientists allow these stupid predictions to continue unchallenged. They belong with those who predict the return of some prophet or other and the end of the world.

That ordinary people, who have been brainwashed into thinking scientists are some sort of higher life form, swallow this nonsense is just sad.

[Julie Marie]

If you look at other medical cases it becomes clear that GID is a symptom of a much bigger genetic disorder.  I give you the example of an XY female, yeah thats right, a XY but due to a genetic defect in the dna she has total immunity to testosterone, only estrogen effects cells.  She develops into a female appearance inside and out, except for reproductive which is typically varies, but mainly internally.   She suffers no effects from GID even though she is genetically male, because her brain and outside appearance are both female.

You're referring to Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS).  It can only happen in XY persons.  There's varying degrees of it.  In cases of complete AIS (CAIS) the body cannot absorb any testosterone.  The body takes unabsorbed T and changes it to E.  CAIS people are sometimes referred to as super women, full lips, large breasts, wide hips and no body hair.  Jamie Lee Curtis is said to be CAIS.

While it might be important to some to not have it in the DSM, typically these people have lots of money and can afford treatment, 

Since GID is and always has been in the DSM, it seems like you are saying that "these people" chose not to use their insurance because they have a lot of money.  The truth is "these people" don't have insurance coverage for GRS or HRT, let alone BA or FFS.  I know the reason I don't have that coverage is the people deciding what will be covered and what won't "know" GID is a mental illness and not a physical one so why offer to pay for physical treatment when it's a problem of the mind?

I paid everything out of pocket.  I'm now legally female.  But my insurance still won't even pay for HRT or the twice yearly needed blood tests.  They cover GGs who's doctors prescribed HRT but won't pay for my doctor prescribed HRT.  Why?  Because I'm mentally ill and I did something to my body they don't believe was a medical necessity so therefore they don't have to cover my HRT.  And an awful lot of people I know are in the same boat.  So tell me again how having GID in the DSM helps pay for your medical treatment.

[brainiac]

Pebbles, I agree with you completely there.

And juliekins, it is a misleading understatement to imply that we are simply "unhappy" with our bodies. The whole point of calling something a disorder is that it's limited to things that cause a real disruption to your life. I think it does injustice to all the suffering we go through to compare it to someone who just wants to lose some weight or wants bigger breasts.

I'm seeing a disturbing trend in here of suggestions that it's okay to throw people with mental disorders under the bus-- either dismissing "mental" problems as less valid or serious health problems than "physical" ones, or taking on an attitude that implies that it's OKAY for mental illnesses to have the stigma they do as long as it doesn't affect us.

I agree with that, spacial. There will ALWAYS be speculation about pills that can magically cure complicated disorders. That speculation is not coming from people who appreciate how incredibly complex the brain is and how little we know about it. It's not coming from people who are doing real science. It's coming from scientists who want media attention, and therefore funding, or from the media's warped version of what psychological and neuroscientific research actually is about.