Heretical Thoughts?

[Stephanie]

I can feel a major purge coming on so some of my thoughts recently regarding transsexuality/->-bleeped-<- etc have been unorthodox.   For example I like to ask myself very honest questions about my attitudes, ideas, opinions regarding what I currently perceive to be my transsexuality.   The following question will seem silly and frivolous and even vaguely insulting at first but let it sink in.   I have been asking myself 'would I still want to transition if I had to dress like an old lady age say 80?'   What I mean by this is would I be prepared to undergo all the hormone therapy and all the surgeries if I had to go about wearing frumpy old lady clothes; long shapeless skirts, ultra-sensible shoes etc.**   Would I be prepared to live with very saggy breasts and an old lady hairstyle?   The short but very honest answer was absolutely not!
   So, I concluded a large part of my desire to be a woman really consists of having long shapely smooth feminine legs.  I also desire to have youthful pert breasts.  I want to wear the most delicate pretty and lacey bras and panties in the most feminine colours.   I want to wear well-cut skirts and the most beautiful dresses.  I want to always be beautifully made -up with the latest hairstyle.  What I have concluded from all this is that I am powerfully drawn towards femininity rather than being a woman.    For as we all know there are many women who hardly ever wear make-up, or who never wear perfume.  There are young women who have the plainest tastes in bras and lingerie.   There are women who live in trousers never wearing a skirt or a dress from one year to another.   So having a pronounced taste for feminine finery doesn't necessarily make me a woman.

I think that if I were a true transsexual then I would have had to answer 'yes' to my question.   A genuine transsexual - in my opinion, and remember it is just MY opinion - would want to become a woman almost regardless of the price to be paid.    I would go through transition only if I thought I would be a youthful, pretty, desirable woman at the end of it.   I don't know what this makes me?    But 'I reserve the right to be complicated'.   

** What made me think this was a few days ago I passed a group of elderly women and they all looked as if they had stripped  a scarecrow or bought their clothes at a jumble sale and then got dressed in the dark.   One was wearing trousers that were too short and ended above her ankles.   Another was wearing a badly-cut garish dress that looked to have been made from an old pair of curtains.  It is not an uncommon sight here in GB to see old ladies going about in boots, rain mates and   three-quarter-length raincoats on the warmest summer days.   Nobody says anything because it is well known that pensioners are too poor to afford seasonal wardrobes.
It seems that in old-age women feel drawn towards the opposite end of the scale from young clothes and image conscious young women.   My mother says that old women just want to be comfortable and they don't give two hoots for what they look like.   

[Colleen Ireland]

I don't know how old you are, but I'm 54, and last night I just met a 55yo trans woman who was GORGEOUS!  And she only started her transition about a year ago.  I mean she was drop-dead.  I don't know if I can end up that good-looking, but even if I don't, I consider that beautiful women come in all shapes and sizes.  And I also know I'll have at least 20-odd years before I'm 80, and I SURE don't want to spend them as a man!  Had enough of that, thank you.

Not to mention, have you seen some of the really beautiful women in their 70's and 80's lately?  Check out Barbara Walters.  There are others, too, but I can't think of them right now.  But... WHY would you assume just because you're 80, you'd have to be a frump?  Even if there are 80yo women who ARE?

[Fencesitter]

I have been asking myself 'would I still want to transition if I had to dress like an old lady age say 80?'

Interesting posting. I've just asked myself the same question (which is even funnier as I'm a transman). I think I would even transition to male if I had to dress like an old lady age 80 for that. Even though it would look really creepy.

But if I had to dress like that PLUS would become incredibly ugly, that would make me hesitate...

I hope you get things sorted out for you; in case of doubt, better don't transition in a hurry. It's very good you think about these things.

[rejennyrated]

Actually it is far from heretical, indeed it is a very perceptive question if you ask me. The fact is we will all be old sooner or later, and I have to confess that I pray to God that I never become one of those type of old lady.

However just to play devils advocate for a moment, by contrast if you had seen my grandmother Lady Hobson at 70, you would have seen an elegant and refined figure, whose only concession to her old age was gray hair. That was back in the 1960's too, and back then there was probably even less choice of snappy styles for the style conscious older woman than there is today.

So my feeling is that there is in fact nothing inevitable about being frumpy in old age. In fact I think you have to accept that whilst age may be inevitable, losing one's sense of style is not.

However having said that I genuinely think that asking yourself that sort of a question can be a way to tease out the depth of your commitment to transition. For example back in the day, I used to ask myself in a similar vein, if I lived in a culture where women were regarded as inferior, were totally restricted in what they could do and had to obey their menfolk at all times would I still have transitioned. To my surprise I had to answer unequivocally yes. I would, when it comes down to it suffer any privation and any restrictions necessary to be myself, so I guess I would pass the spirit of your test.

Ultimately only you can determine your own mind. So please do keep questioning.

(Oh and by the way I'm now over 50, but having transitioned in my early 20's I guess being an old lady is now just a price I must soon pay for having once been a young and moderately cute one.)

[cynthialee]

Right on.
Personaly I was aproached with that same question early on and the thought of being an old man was very repugnant. I would far prefer being an old woman.
I think the old age question is one of the best self examination questions we can use in our quest to find our personal path through GID.

[K8]

Older women can dress well.  The question I asked myself was whether I would be happier as an ugly old woman than a man.  When the answer was yes, I went for it.  I'm approaching old age and if I'm lucky I will get there.  I may always look mannish and will gradually show my age more and more, but I am far happier as an aging woman than any kind of man.

And I dress pretty well for my age.  I just can't envision myself in a shapeless dress with saggy stockings.  I'm going to be a well-put-together old broad.

- Kate

[spacial]

I once asked myself the question, would I be prepard to be an ugly woman?

I came to the conclusion that the term is relative. I further realised that we all have to take what we are given. That the question is somewhat self defeating, even approaching retorical.

I have to say, your version is a little unfair on yourself. Unless you are already in your 80s.

Perhaps a better question would be, are you prepared to be an old woman when you are old?

But maybe you should be thinking about why you need to ask this question.

Transision is not going to be an easy option.

[Nicky]

Yeah, you are only as frumpy as you want to be. I know a lot of older ladies that just don't care anymore. They have been young, they have been beautiful. In their old age they have other priorities and have accepted age. You have not lived that young womans life. Of course you are drawn to femininity, you have been denied it for so long. You want to experience it to it's fullest. It is really common for trans girls to go through some teenaged years, uber fem years, but things settle down once you get your fill and settle into your life as the woman you discover yourself to be.

Something to remember too is that you are not 80 years old. There is no reason why you would transition to become an 80 year old woman even if you could.  Heck I would not want to look like you described, so I don't. Tons of woman desire to be beautiful, to be desireable, to be youthful. It is in our faces all the time in advertising, we are told this is what we need to be. We are sold this ideal.

I don't like the whole Idea of 'true transexuality'. It is silly. We are all different. You desire to be the woman you are. Wether you use the label or not is unimportant. If the woman you are desires to be beautiful, that is the woman you are. Femininity is part of you, it is no mystery that you desire to express that in all ways.

On the plus side their is no chance you will get old saggy breasts on hormones honey. They will be firm and high and perky just like you want! Yum!!

Now would you want to be an 80 year old guy with saggy man boobs, a hunched back, arthritus, giant hemeroids, an enlarged prostate that makes it hard to pee, and surrounded by old man smell and a regret for not taking a chance at a life you wanted? I would choose the old lady. I would be the crazy cat lady.

[JennX]

I have been asking myself 'would I still want to transition if I had to dress like an old lady age say 80?'   What I mean by this is would I be prepared to undergo all the hormone therapy and all the surgeries if I had to go about wearing frumpy old lady clothes; long shapeless skirts, ultra-sensible shoes etc.**   Would I be prepared to live with very saggy breasts and an old lady hairstyle?   The short but very honest answer was absolutely not!

I had a similar experience and thought a few weeks ago. Who wants to get old. Be it man, woman, or child. Getting old sucks. I don't think anyone wants to be the character you describe. But, the ultimate question is: Is it worth it to you? Or do you want to keep the status quo? Hell, say if you only have 5 years left on this mudball, wouldn't you want to enjoy them? I would.

Now would you want to be an 80 year old guy with saggy man boobs, a hunched back, arthritus, giant hemeroids, an enlarged prostate that makes it hard to pee, and surrounded by old man smell and a regret for not taking a chance at a life you wanted? I would choose the old lady. I would be the crazy cat lady.

This was the answer I came to. At least I'll still be fashionable and have one hell of a shoe and handbag collection by then.

[Rosa]

I think that I would rather be an old lady than an old man.  I don't expect to be gorgeous, of course beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but I would be content if I could look as good as Mrs. Doubtfire!  My big thing is I just want to be able to pass as female - young or old, and not look like a guy trying to look like a girl.

We all will get old one day if nothing unforeseen happens.  The question is do we want to be an old lady or an old man.

[Vanessa_yhvh]

I tried to envision how I might look as I age when this transition thing first came up, and wound up accepting growing old as something I'm going to have to do anyway. So why not grow old in a manner more agreeable to me than as a dude rolling around in regret? I couldn't counter that very forcefully.

Also worth note, though, is that I've run into an ex-gf of mine at the gym and grocery store, and noted that in her early 60s, she's still sexy as hell. She just is.

So, don't be a frump if you don't wanna be. I figure when I'm older I'll just be an older me. No need to be somebody else I don't like. (I already did that for the better part of 4 decades anyway.)

[Hermione01]

Yeah, you are only as frumpy as you want to be. I know a lot of older ladies that just don't care anymore. They have been young, they have been beautiful. In their old age they have other priorities and have accepted age. You have not lived that young womans life. Of course you are drawn to femininity, you have been denied it for so long. You want to experience it to it's fullest. It is really common for trans girls to go through some teenaged years, uber fem years, but things settle down once you get your fill and settle into your life as the woman you discover yourself to be.

Something to remember too is that you are not 80 years old. There is no reason why you would transition to become an 80 year old woman even if you could.  Heck I would not want to look like you described, so I don't. Tons of woman desire to be beautiful, to be desireable, to be youthful. It is in our faces all the time in advertising, we are told this is what we need to be. We are sold this ideal.

I don't like the whole Idea of 'true transexuality'. It is silly. We are all different. You desire to be the woman you are. Wether you use the label or not is unimportant. If the woman you are desires to be beautiful, that is the woman you are. Femininity is part of you, it is no mystery that you desire to express that in all ways.

On the plus side their is no chance you will get old saggy breasts on hormones honey. They will be firm and high and perky just like you want! Yum!!

Now would you want to be an 80 year old guy with saggy man boobs, a hunched back, arthritus, giant hemeroids, an enlarged prostate that makes it hard to pee, and surrounded by old man smell and a regret for not taking a chance at a life you wanted? I would choose the old lady. I would be the crazy cat lady.

^ this.

I think it's easy to criticise old ladies for not giving a damn anymore but if they still living a full life and have all their faculties past 80 years, they've won the lottery.  They are way past judgment and all that.

It is interesting thoughts you have Stephanie, but maybe it's just a fear of aging.  Everyone feels like this one time or another.

[Kay Henderson]

And I dress pretty well for my age.  I just can't envision myself in a shapeless dress with saggy stockings.  I'm going to be a well-put-together old broad.

Amen to that.

At age 69, I'm often told that I look 15 years younger...and I feel as if I'm in my forties.  I intend to work at looking nice as long as I can.

[Stephanie]

Thank you all for your interesting and thought provoking replies.   At the moment I feel that I am more interested in the external signs of womanhood rather than the essence.   However, I also consider Stephanie to be my real name and I use it in emails and in correspondence and I feel sick to my stomach when I have to tick the 'Mr' or 'Male' boxes in forms, and even though my mother confronts me whenever at letter comes for me addressed Miss or Ms Stephanie ******* I still continue to use those terms as they just feel so right.*  So maybe Nicky is right and I am so obsessed with femininity because my true nature has been so terribly suppressed all these years?  Perhaps after a few years of getting it out of my system I might settle down to just living as an 'ordinary' woman?


* You can call yourself anything you like as long as you can prove that you have or had no intention to deceive.   Always  tell the truth in government and financial forms though.

[Alyssa M.]

I've had thoughts along those lines. I think it has something to do with the way our society glorifies youth among women and age among men. Basically, women are valued more when they're under thirty; men when they're over thirty. Now guess how old I am. So to me it's not as much a gender thing as it is something every woman has to deal with. Some do it better than others.

[Melody Maia]

I think you are making the question harder than it needs to be. By throwing age in there you are tipping the scales. I realized I really wanted to transition when I asked myself would I do it if I knew I would end up looking plain and forced to wear an old sweatsuit all the time. In my mind I made  myself divorce the outer trappings of femininity from becoming a woman. In the past I attributed my feelings to an attraction to the clothes. But cross dressing soon lost its appeal. When the answer to my thought experiment was yes, I knew I was trans so here I am instead of at the many CD forums.

However, I think in the early days of transition, we are rather like adolescent girls. A bit obsessed with hair, makeup, clothes and all the things girls get to play with during puberty. It is part of the maturing process and I think we can be a bit hard on ourselves. My wife rolls her eyes when I lust after the stilettos because she knows as a 40 year old woman that they kill your feet, but I haven't had a chance to play in that arena before. Those products exist because lots of females like them. Some part of this has to be fun too, doesn't it?

[Colleen Ireland]

Some part of this has to be fun too, doesn't it?

AMEN, sister!  Fun, and happy!  Else why go there?

[lauren3332]

I think all people worry about this no matter if they are cisgendered or transgendered.  No one wants to face the fact that looks tend to fade away with time.  It is natural to worry about this kind of thing.  People always are doing things to try to make themselves look younger.  Another problem is the issue of the classification of transsexuals.  There is the "primary" or "true" transsexual and the "secondary" transsexual.  You feel that because something from the external world triggered your dysphoria that somehow you are not an actual transsexual.  You think in order to match the description of a transsexual, you needed to be aware of these feelings when you were extremely young.  You worry that just because you were fine for X amount of years that people will use that in order to prove you are not a transsexual.  They will think something made you this way since you were fine before these feelings started.  In this case you are worried that the focus on physical beauty makes you come off as just a man who likes the clothes of the opposite gender.  I used to get caught up in thoughts similar to this myself.  Maybe you can live as a man and be fine, but you would miss out on being a woman and living up to your full potential.   

I assume that you are still relatively young and so you are attracted to things within your age group.  Liking your aged physical body comes with time.  When you live a long time some things just aren't as important as they used to be.  This is also natural. 

I wish there was more information on the "secondary" transsexual.  There are probably quite of bit of people that are would benefit from transition but they get caught up in the whole " my feelings weren't innate so I am not a real woman or man" kind of philosophy.  Maybe you were not inclined towards on gender or the other and when adulthood finally hit where gender plays more of a role, you feel the dysphoria of not being the other sex.  Also, if chemicals in people's heads can change to where they are always depressed, why couldn't the brain change gender identity in the middle of life? 

Sorry for the rant.   

[Nicky]

Just want to point out. My grandmother is in their 80's and they are beautiful.
My grandmother does not bother to wear a bra anymore (which is unfortunate as now and then she uses her top to wipe her mouth and I get flashed! She has surprisingly youthful boobs, even if they are saggy!), she is in track pants and a stained top most of the time, but she has the most beautiful smile the way all her wrinkles stand out, the marks of happyness and sadness of a full life, and her skin is so soft. She is radiant. I want to be an old woman like that. I want a full life as the woman I am. Even if I did not have much of that life left, I would suck and savor every moment.

[Fencesitter]

Dear rejennyrated,

let me just put your thoughts one step further and ask you a couple of very hypothetical and doubly gender-bending questions:

Imagine you could switch you body to an average looking female body of your age, and being perceived as having a female body with a female mind by others, but we somehow lived in a society which had certain very weird gender expectations on a small minority having a certain job, or a class or ethnicity one belongs to, and you would belong to that minority:

1. Would that be okay for you if people had to sir you or give you male pronouns?
2. Would it be okay for you if you still had to wear male clothes? (This question makes the most sense here I think)
3. Would it be okay for you if the only job you can find is that of a Drag King? (That question's the funniest I think)
4. Would it be okay for you if you had to "live your life as a man" in a caricature of 50ies society, with gentleman roles etc.?
5. Would it be okay for you if you had to "live your life as a woman" in a caricature of 50ies society?

You can also ask yourself versions of this question by changing the aspects written in bold.

I have switched genders for these questions for myself and think I could do all of that but the female role expectation of the caricatural 50ies society. I doubt I'd be talented as a drag queen though.

I think all people worry about this no matter if they are cisgendered or transgendered.  No one wants to face the fact that looks tend to fade away with time.  It is natural to worry about this kind of thing.  People always are doing things to try to make themselves look younger.

True.

Another problem is the issue of the classification of transsexuals.  There is the "primary" or "true" transsexual and the "secondary" transsexual.

You know what I think is the weirdest thing about this classification? It goes stubbornly by sexual orientation and nothing else, bisexuals don't exist in this theory, plus they forgot to look if this theory could also apply to FTMs (probably because they had this old-fashioned idea that FTMs are always only into women). I think that it may indeed be more difficult to figure out what the heck's the matter with you and to come to terms with it if you are a lesbian in a male body than a straight woman, and vice versa for trans guys in a society which is both homophobic and also tends to forget that homosexuals exist at all. This may lead to a statistically later first contact with gender therapists.

Plus living (or trying to live) as a lesbian or gay guy before transition means you feel less forced to adapt to traditional gender expectations as you can still pick/try to live as a butch lesbian or effeminate gay guy, and it might take you some time to figure out the other people of that kind are not like you. Plus it may make you be perceived as "he's like a woman"/"she's like a man" by general society, which comes as close to the social aspect of transitioning as you can get though it's a low status position. In contrast, "straight butch woman" and even more "effeminate straight guy" are not really usual or accepted concepts in the hetero world, which forces you somewhat more to adopt a fake persona and deny or bury deeply inside you what you really are, even if it's only out of fear of homophobia (I think people who are really just, well, straight butch women or effeminate straight guys might have the same hassle). I think that's the whole truth behind this theory, there might have been genuine observations by the shrinks at the base - but the rest about this theory is transphobic bull->-bleeped-<-.

You feel that because something from the external world triggered your dysphoria that somehow you are not an actual transsexual.  You think in order to match the description of a transsexual, you needed to be aware of these feelings when you were extremely young.  You worry that just because you were fine for X amount of years that people will use that in order to prove you are not a transsexual.  They will think something made you this way since you were fine before these feelings started.

This is especially true for the younger FTMs, where tomboyish behavior etc. is often accepted until puberty hits so at least childhood is less of a pain. But here again, they forgot the FTMs in their weird theory.

In this case you are worried that the focus on physical beauty makes you come off as just a man who likes the clothes of the opposite gender.  I used to get caught up in thoughts similar to this myself.

I think it's still a good idea to first check this up for oneself better than to transition in a haste. MTFs have less freedom of experimentation here, unfortunately.   

I wish there was more information on the "secondary" transsexual.  There are probably quite of bit of people that are would benefit from transition but they get caught up in the whole " my feelings weren't innate so I am not a real woman or man" kind of philosophy.  Maybe you were not inclined towards on gender or the other and when adulthood finally hit where gender plays more of a role, you feel the dysphoria of not being the other sex.  Also, if chemicals in people's heads can change to where they are always depressed, why couldn't the brain change gender identity in the middle of life?

I don't know. I think this kind of things may happen. But if that was my case, I'd be very afraid that my gender identity might switch back again or end up being somewhere in-between in the future.