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DES sons...(Diethylstilbestrol Hormone) were you exposed?

Started by Opaque, September 20, 2010, 01:39:11 AM

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Devlyn and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

JLT1

HI,

Generally, endocrine disrupting chemicals follow a pattern: weak - alteration in primary sexual characteristics like gonads and some brain, moderate - secondary structures like bones, and much of the brain, high - tertiary characteristics or everything else, including the structure of the brain....

Jen

To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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big kim

I am convinced I am. I was born in October 1957 in England. Mum had a miscarriage before me. I was very tall, long arms & legs, no Adam's apple.
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HughE

We have a much larger and more complex brain than most animals, and our brain continues to undergo development a lot longer than is the case for most animal brains. Our brain development continues throughout the 9 months of our gestation, whereas things associated with our physical attributes (like major organ development, limb development and so forth), have all largely finished by the end of the first trimester. Because it has such a long window of vulnerability, our brain tends to be disproportionately affected by any kind of toxic exposure taking place during our prenatal development, so it should hardly come as a surprise that it tends to be the main thing affected when you expose an unborn baby to feminising hormones such as DES.

Furthermore, the way miscarriage preventatives such as DES (and the drug that has since replaced it, hydroxyprogesterone caproate) tend to be prescribed means that the exposure during the first trimester is small, with much heavier exposure during the second and third trimesters. Since most or all of the exposure doesn't occur until after the physical things associated with your sex have already completed their development, that makes it even less likely that there will be obvious physical effects, and more likely that the main place the effects will show up is in the brain. A website called Hormones Matter recently published an article I wrote explaining how this works:

https://www.hormonesmatter.com/maternal-des-exposure-intersex-development-males/

Once you understand that it's hormones produced in the testicles that drive male development, that DES works very well as a chemical castration agent, and that it was typically given in progressively increasing doses that went higher and higher as the pregnancy continued, it's easy to see how it could have produced male appearing people with female brains. The exposure was still small enough during the first trimester so that a male baby's testicles could still produce testosterone. However, the dosage was progressively ramped up, and from the second trimester onwards, enough DES was crossing the placenta to chemically castrate a male fetus, causing that future person's testicular hormone production to drop to zero throughout the second and third trimesters. Since testicular hormones are what drive male development, and in the absence of those hormones, whether XX or XY, a fetus will develop as female by default, it's produced people who developed as male during the first trimester, but as female during the second and third trimesters. Because of the way development takes place in an unborn child, this results in people who physically appear to be male, but have female brains.

I think it's highly likely that hydroxyprogesterone caproate is doing the same thing, since it has similar pharmacological properties to a drug often used to chemically castrate sex offenders (medroxyprogesterone acetate), and is being given to pregnant women in what look like very high doses. The difference between DES and hydroxyprogesterone caproate is that the guidelines say to not initiate treatment until at least week 16 after conception, whereas, under the standard dosing schedule, DES was already being given in quite high doses earlier than that. So you'd expect the physical effects from hydroxyprogesterone caproate to be a lot less than from DES, even though it could still be causing female brain development to occur.

On another note, I recently found something that reinforces my opinion that the medical authorities have known for a long time that the male assigned children from DES pregnancies are often heavily physically and psychologically feminized, and they've opted for a cover up:

https://twitter.com/HughEaston/status/1032050001428525056
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Virginia

Thank you for chiming in to share your knowledge on this topic, HughE. I for one have come to respect you as the DES expert on gender forums.

My understanding is that the human brain continues to develop well beyond birth, into the 20's actually. Another reason teenage drug use has such devastating consequences on the rest of a young person's life.
~VA (pronounced Vee- Aye, the abbreviation for the State of Virginia where I live)
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MxKale

So, this is a fascinating thread for me.

There are things about my Dad that didn't make sense that actually do with this information. I know my grandmother took DES with him because she told my parents before they got married as she was worried they wouldn't be able to have children. He was the only child she took DES with.

My father has two brothers, an older and a younger one, and he's very differently built than they are. His older brother is 6' tall, very stocky and has a deep voice. Then while his younger brother is shorter than that he is closer to 6' than my Dad is; my uncle also has a deeper voice and is more muscular. In comparison my Dad is proportioned a lot more like his mom. At his tallest he was 5' 9". He's also very slight but that had been attributed to him cutting weight for wrestling.

I actually made a quick sketch comparing the profiles of my father, my brother and myself. Mine is orange, my father's is teal and my brother's is blue. I tried to line them up at the brow so I could keep them at the same scale.



But, I actually don't think my brother or I would be surprised if it turned out our dad was a woman though. We would sometimes joke about him being more like a mom than Mom when we were kids. Then on top of that while I'm not "out" to my parents he's the one who has seemingly picked up on it and keeps encouraging me to buy a suit.
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KathyLauren

Hi, MxKale!

Welcome to Susan's Place.

Many of us older trans women suspect (or know in some cases) that we were exposed to DES in utero.  It is kind of water under the bridge at this point, but it is interesting to have a biological explanation for why we are who we are.

Please feel free to stop by the Introductions forum to tell the members about yourself.  Here is some information that we like to share with new members:

Things that you should read





2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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Paige

@KathyLauren

Hi Kathy Lauren,

Do you know how DES was prescribed in Canada?  Was it as common as the US?  I've had a suspicion for quite some time I was a DES baby.  I was born in 62, my brother is 6'4",  I'm 5'9" with many female features. 

My mother said she didn't take anything when she was pregnant with me.  She's a nurse so she should know but I wonder if they told her it was vitamins.  I've also thought she may not remember or doesn't want to tell me. 

It would make a lot of sense.

Thanks,
Paige :)


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KathyLauren

Quote from: Paige on September 04, 2018, 10:02:25 PM
Do you know how DES was prescribed in Canada? 
Sorry, I know nothing about its use in Canada.  I think I have read that it was used here, which would make sense given its use in the U.S..  I know it was routinely prescribed in the U.S. and in the U.K., where I was born.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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jkredman

I was a DES son. 

I will eventually be a DES daughter.

Maybe it had something to do with the way I am.   It really doesn't matter to me.  What matters is finally being true to the woman I've repressed for so many years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kate
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KathyLauren

Hi, jkredman!

Welcome to Susan's Place.

I find that knowing about DES brings me a little closure on why I am the way I am.  It is comforting to know that I am not imagining the whole thing, that it is something real. 

But, as you say, it really doesn't matter.  We are who we are, and we are just trying to be our authentic selves, whatever the cause.

Please feel free to stop by the Introductions forum to tell the members about yourself.  Here is some information that we like to share with new members:

Things that you should read





2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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HughE

I'm not sure if there are still any UK based DES "sons" here, but ITV are currently doing an investigation into DES, and looking for people with a history of DES exposure to share their stories.

This is only for people living in the UK unfortunately.

I've spoken to the producer and mentioned that many of us seem to be both physically and psychologically feminised. If anyone would like to share their story, the contact details are as follows:

Sarah Corker, https://x.com/SarahCorkerNews

Email: socialaffairs@itv.com

Allie Jayne

Being a DES child should matter to us all, as the effects of DES have recently been found to be passed down at least one generation, maybe more. Rates of being trans are just one of the many conditions which have been linked to DES, and these include reproductive problems and higher rates of cancer.

Of course, for many of us born in the '40's, '50's '60's and '70's, there are no records which clearly indicate our mothers were administered DES, and most mothers were simply unaware what their doctors were giving them! All we can do is try to find if our pregnancies fit the profile of those most commonly administered DES.

Hugs,

Allie

aaajjj55

It was here about 8 years ago that I first became aware of DES, thanks to another member raising it when I was looking for answers as to why I am the way that I am.  I was therefore interested to see that, as mentioned by HughE above, Channel 4 has picked up this issue, albeit the one report I saw was focussed on those who took DES and made only passing mention of daughters with no mention of sons.

Whilst I have no direct proof that my mother took DES, she often talked about being prescribed something during pregnancy (which she thought was thalidomide but that never really added up given that, whilst she only took the medication for a short time, I have no traces whatsoever of any of the horrific side effects).  Having had a miscarriage before me, the prescription of DES seems logical and the side effects she experienced, in particular nausea, are those of DES too.

Over the years, I've tried to find ratification of a link between DES and TG but, at least the last time I had a good look, nothing stood out.  In fact what I did find were assertions either that there was no link or that the research itself was inconclusive.

I remain very open minded about all of this.  Without a doubt, many in our position look for hard scientific reasoning to support the way we are and I certainly heavily relied on a link with DES when confessing my feelings to my wife. I do sometimes wonder whether, anecdotally, the fact that many of us grasp this particular nettle has made the link appear stronger than it really is, or even whether the link is illusory.

But the point that many on the outside seem to miss is that DES is synthesised oestrogen which was administered in very high concentrations.  That is irrefutable fact.  Also irrefutable is the fact that medication taken by the mother can pass to the foetus, thalidomide giving us all the proof we need of that.  Against that, it is not unreasonable to suggest that ingesting high concentrations of oestrogen during the early stages of pregnancy is not going to reduce the probability of resultant male offspring having gender related issues.

Whether we will ever get a definitive answer to this is doubtful.  I suspect that the government will do their utmost not to dig into this due to the attendant risk of multiple compensation claims.  In any event, as observed above, medical records no longer exist (I did look into getting my late mother's medical records but, as far as I remember, following their computerisation, they only go back as far as 1988 (I was born in 1960)) and many of the mothers that did take it are either deceased or suffering from diminished memory so definitive study will be difficult.  That said, it is gratifying that Channel 4 is pursuing this and it would be even more gratifying to see them turn their attention onto this particular issue.  We can but hope.
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Lori Dee

Although not related specifically to DES, there were studies done to examine genes and hormone exposure at the time of birth or immediately preceding. The studies are not conclusive; however, they indicate how exposure to estrogen by the fetal brain has certain effects. Since the mother already has estrogen in her system, it may or may not affect the fetal brain depending on these genetic factors. If we add high doses of a synthetic estrogen, like DES, into the mix, it makes sense that the effect could be compounded.

Here is one of the studies:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm
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KathyLauren

Quote from: aaajjj55 on Today at 09:47:20 AMingesting high concentrations of oestrogen during the early stages of pregnancy is not going to reduce the probability of resultant male offspring having gender related issues.
[emphasis added]

The interesting thing about DES is that, in a typical usage, the dosage started low in early pregnancy and ramped up in the later stages.  A typical course of DES started with 5mg per day at week 7 of the pregnancy and increased to 125mg per day by week 35.  This means that, in the first trimester, when the genitals are forming, the dose is relatively low, so genital development is normal.  But by the second and third trimester, when the brain is developing, the dose is much higher, likely high enough to totally suppress testosterone in the fetus.

Even though the relevant data were not collected at the time, and experimentation would be highly unethical now, the correlation between DES use and trans-female offspring is established.  Given the dosage regime, a causative link is probable, even if it cannot be proved.

I got the dosage data from a post here on Susan's Place, but unfortunately that thread no longer exists.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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