A questions of ethics?

[kelly_aus]

Here's a question for you..

Assuming you are post-op, is it wrong to not disclose the fact that you were once the opposite gender to a partner?

My view is that it's not something that needs to be mentioned, that it is not necessary because it's nobody's business what your body used to look like?

I am still the sum total of my life experiences, regardless of what my body looked like, I'm still the same person..

[rejennyrated]

Well personally I would always disclose simply because for me it is important that a relationship be built on genuinely shared values, TRUTH and mutual trust.

I would regard someone making love to me who disapproved of my past as a form of rape!

I really object to those sorts of attitude so much that I would not WANT to even have someone with what I regard as an offensive attitude like that as a close friend PERIOD!

But each of us must of course make our own decision. The only thing I would say, is that in not disclosing, not only do we leave ourselves open to horrible things happening IF the secret leaks - which it may very well - but also we fail to stand up and be counted when it really counts, because we have failed to trust our partner! To me that is a fake relationship with a major fault line running down its center. I would want mine to be stronger and more real than that!

[spacial]

Kelly, when I first joined this forum, last January, I thought I was pretty certain of the answer to that. I think I even made one of my more boring posts about it.

Now, I'm not so sure.

Just thought you like to know. Sadly, I can't respond in any other way anymore.

[kelly_aus]

Thank you for your honesty and forthrightness rejennyrated. You do make some valid points..

Kelly, when I first joined this forum, last January, I thought I was pretty certain of the answer to that. I think I even made one of my more boring posts about it.

Now, I'm not so sure.

Just thought you like to know. Sadly, I can't respond in any other way anymore.

I think my views may change as well, as they are not set in concrete. I asked the question and made the statement as they are somewhat controversial and I hoped they would generate some good discussion..

[Sinnyo]

I'm pretty sure I'd have to disclose. It would kill me not to tell - it's been bad enough enduring a year of knowing I am trans and not feeling able to tell anybody. I don't want to have to stifle myself again if and when I fall in love.

It's not everybody's business, but it is an intimate part of me and something which has defined the person I am now. It'd be pretty awkward to orchestrate a fake childhood and teenagedom for myself, as well as urging my entire family to dodge the issue if asked by my innocent partner. There's also the small problem of fertility - were I to try for a child, I'd have to address the fact I can only provide one, unexpected side of the process. Not so much a problem if my preference for women lasts through HRT, but it'd be very awkward indeed otherwise.

[rejennyrated]

Thank you for your honesty and forthrightness rejennyrated. You do make some valid points..

Yes I certainly have no wish to offend anyone and it is an individual decision.

One other thing I want to add Like Gemma I am also quite proud of what I have managed to make of myself. At the end of the day the fact is we are what are, in many ways we are a work of transformational art, and we should learn to be proud of that.

[spacial]

I think my views may change as well, as they are not set in concrete. I asked the question and made the statement as they are somewhat controversial and I hoped they would generate some good discussion..

I really hope so too.

I don't see any reason why someone should say anything about any part of themselves while a relationship is casual. But that raises the problem of it possibly developing into something more.

As for a long term relationship, as Jenny implies, if you don't tell your partner because you fear rejection then you're having a relationship with someone, who at best, you don't know very well and worst, with someone who dispproves of who you are.

But having said that, relationships are complex things. Loneliness sucks. If someone does manage to maintain a relationship without their partner knowing, then good luck. I think I know pretty much all there is to know about my wife, after almost 30 years. But if I'm honest, I probably don't. (She's very smart, has enormous self control and very tough).

The big fear in the latter case would be your partner finding out at some time. (Fertitlity aside).

[kelly_aus]

OK, I confess.. I actually agree with Rejennyrated.. The OP was the result of a discussion in the chat room where I decided to play the Devil's Advocate and take the opposite stance. As I mentioned in my reply to Spacial's post, I was looking for some good discussion on the topic.. Which I hope continues..

I will sometimes argue a from the opposite point of view of my beliefs in order to check that my beliefs are at least mostly sound..

Yes I certainly have no wish to offend anyone and it is an individual decision.

One other thing I want to add Like Gemma I am also quite proud of what I have managed to make of myself. At the end of the day the fact is we are what are, in many ways we are a work of transformational art, and we should learn to be proud of that.

No offence taken, even if I had been being completely honest.

I'm proud of myself for what I've achieved so far, most of which is personal development.. But I see no reason not to continue feeling proud as I move forward with my transition..

[Asfsd4214]

Assuming you are post-op, is it wrong to not disclose the fact that you were once the opposite gender to a partner?

Yes.

Ok to get more into it, right and wrong are subjective, but my subjective opinion is that yes, it is wrong.

The reason it is wrong, is because it means you are withholding information that you know your partner would want to know about you in making his or her own evaluations of you, which is essentially deceiving them, and showing them mistrust. And I don't think that kind of deceit or manipulation has any place in a healthy relationship.

[Octavianus]

As a partner I would certainly want to know. It is not that the condition itself is that important to me, but trust in each other is. Like Jenny mentioned above, a relationship should be built on trust in each other. As close minded as a person may be, it would be inexcusable to have sexual intercourse with a person who does not accept transsexual people, but simply doesn't know about the partner. This can leave him emotionally damaged.
Please do not misunderstand me, I do not relate to that kind of people, but that is just how the world works.
From the point of view of a transwoman, I don't think I could ever have sex with a person if I don't know if he would still love me if he knew everything about me.

In short, yes, disclosure is necessary in a serious relationship, preferrably before having sex.

[Nicky]

I don't think I would call it unethical, hiding your past.

But I think if you want a serious relationship, discolosure is best. Secrets are a horrible burden, its like being in a new cage. We go through our transitions in some ways to get out of a cage, I don't want to jump into another.

Personally I am very open about being a trans girl and have no trouble telling a prospective partner, or anyone else for that matter.

[insanitylives]

No, you don't have to. Your past is your past.

But their probably going to find out at some point. It's probably a better idea to.

[Colleen Ireland]

I guess my view on this is shaped by the fact that I got married when I was still trying to deny my true nature, and therefore ended up doing the same thing but in the opposite direction - and by not disclosing my true nature, I ended up buying myself 31 years (so far) of emotional pain and a living-death life, and now I'm facing what will probably be the slow death of my marriage to a woman I love dearly, and possibly make a train wreck of my family.  So, I do think, in any future relationship, if things get serious, having learned my lesson the hard way, I would plan to be completely open and honest, and let the chips fall where they may.  If the person and I are meant to be together, I trust we will.  If not, then not.  My lack of maturity and emotional courage 30+ years ago will end up costing me dearly, I fear...

[Nicky]

That is a sad but all too common story Colleen, it is tragic no?

For me I did not know the extent of it myself when I start going out and marrying my wife. But I definitly hid more than a let on. By the time I decided I needed to do something, we had been married awhile, have two kids and had built a life together. Friken hard having to dismantle that.

You have to come out to yourself before you can come out to anyone else.

Hugs!

[Janet_Girl]

I go back and forth on this issue.  I am still pre-op, although I am post-orchie, and for now I tell.  Of course I don't get past many first dates. 

But if I were post-op, I think I still would tell my partner.  I don't feel right about keeping something this big from them.

[Ayaname]

Here's a question for you..

Assuming you are post-op, is it wrong to not disclose the fact that you were once the opposite gender to a partner?

My view is that it's not something that needs to be mentioned, that it is not necessary because it's nobody's business what your body used to look like?

I am still the sum total of my life experiences, regardless of what my body looked like, I'm still the same person..

By not telling a partner about your past you are denying them the choice to actively disagree with you on this matter simply because you think they should agree. That is what dictators do.
And anyway, if you think transphobia is morally abhorrent then why would you want to date someone who would run away in disgust if they knew? To do so would be compromising your own morals.
Either way you look at it, keeping your past a secret from a sexual or romantic partner seems to be the less moral choice.

[Northern Jane]

I have been around a long time and I have tried both ways.

When I was young (and wild) and not looking for anything serious, it was nobody's business so I kept it to myself.

I didn't tell my first husband but that marriage went south for other reasons. He found out after we split and was livid because I hadn't trusted him enough to tell him - I didn't see it as a big deal but he did.

I told me second husband the first night we spent together and he was great. It turned out to be a good thing I did because my stealth was blown about 6 years into our relationship and he was my greatest defender.

Now, decades later, I am back on the dating scene, much older and wiser (I hope) but find it is a much bigger issue with older men. Most do a runner as soon as they know but it is better that I don't waste my time with someone who thinks like that.

[aubrey]

I'm really super torn on it, because I prefer honesty and not to hold anything back. But it seems so far from experience that honesty on this issue leads to a very lonely existence, and the possibility of never truly assimilating. It's not that people in general are cruel, phobic, etc... but that they are underinformed or misinformed on us. Do I want to have to teach everyone I become close with about how wrong their perceptions are of us and that it's o.k. to view and treat me as a normal human being and not have any subtle views that ultimately sour the relationship? Not so much. Ultimately we tend to be a temporary fixture in all but a few people's lives: those that stick around for most of our life, so ethics is almost moot IMO. I guess I will have to try both approaches after a few surgeries to know what to do long term.

[Colleen Ireland]

I told me second husband the first night we spent together and he was great. It turned out to be a good thing I did because my stealth was blown about 6 years into our relationship and he was my greatest defender.

Exactly why I would always tell - otherwise you'd always have to live in fear.  Much better and healthier to live without fear.  Having lived a lie for 50+ years, I have no further wish to ever do so again.  Not for anyone.

Now, decades later, I am back on the dating scene, much older and wiser (I hope) but find it is a much bigger issue with older men. Most do a runner as soon as they know but it is better that I don't waste my time with someone who thinks like that.

Bingo.

[Fencesitter]

I think I'd lose much of my self-esteem if I dated a partner without knowing if they would accept that I'm transsexual.

Okay you may lose many potential partners, but it's a great way to rid yourself of the close-minded ones.