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The glass ceiling

Started by NatalieRene, September 29, 2010, 12:25:15 PM

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NatalieRene

I've been in my real life experience since the start of September. It's been almost a month and during this time I've become increasing aware of the way I am treated differently in work and my socially.

It seems like my opinion on how to fix a problem is overlooked more often now. To the extent that a coworker that doesn't know what he is doing was allowed to "fix" a problem without informing me of the issue. In the process of it he declared a piece of hardware dead and lost the project code and decided he would just rewrite it. So this morning I arrived into a ->-bleeped-<- storm because nothing was working and a classroom was down. I went over and looked at the "dead" control system and found that the dipswitch to disable the program was flipped.  ::) I flipped it and the room worked again after rehooking the old control system back in. The whole time though I was treated like I was crazy and there was no way that would work because he already tried that.

Last week when I needed to make a cable for the test system in my office I went over and asked a coworker for some wire so I could make a cable. What I got instead was a demonstration of how to make the wire and him telling me how to plug it in. Oh my god seriously I know how to do this I was the one that showed you how to do it last year!

The one saving grace was that he happily put my test system together for me while I went and got coffee from Starbucks. Of course while there I had the person taking my order talking to my chest the entire time. They didn't do the order right and I tried to correct the guy but he was insisting that he knew what I ordered and that I was being a emotional woman expecting special treatment. If by special you mean ungluing your eyes from my breasts then yeah.

So yeah so far it's going great, I just need to figure out how to make it clear that the process of transitioning hasn't in some way caused me to lose 50 IQ points.
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Alainaluvsu

lol, congratulations, you're a woman  ::)

At least people see you as such!!
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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Izumi

Quote from: NatalieRene on September 29, 2010, 12:25:15 PM
I've been in my real life experience since the start of September. It's been almost a month and during this time I've become increasing aware of the way I am treated differently in work and my socially.

It seems like my opinion on how to fix a problem is overlooked more often now. To the extent that a coworker that doesn't know what he is doing was allowed to "fix" a problem without informing me of the issue. In the process of it he declared a piece of hardware dead and lost the project code and decided he would just rewrite it. So this morning I arrived into a ->-bleeped-<- storm because nothing was working and a classroom was down. I went over and looked at the "dead" control system and found that the dipswitch to disable the program was flipped.  ::) I flipped it and the room worked again after rehooking the old control system back in. The whole time though I was treated like I was crazy and there was no way that would work because he already tried that.

Last week when I needed to make a cable for the test system in my office I went over and asked a coworker for some wire so I could make a cable. What I got instead was a demonstration of how to make the wire and him telling me how to plug it in. Oh my god seriously I know how to do this I was the one that showed you how to do it last year!

The one saving grace was that he happily put my test system together for me while I went and got coffee from Starbucks. Of course while there I had the person taking my order talking to my chest the entire time. They didn't do the order right and I tried to correct the guy but he was insisting that he knew what I ordered and that I was being a emotional woman expecting special treatment. If by special you mean ungluing your eyes from my breasts then yeah.

So yeah so far it's going great, I just need to figure out how to make it clear that the process of transitioning hasn't in some way caused me to lose 50 IQ points.

Welcome to life as a woman, the bra burning is to the right >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am also in IT, but have learned there is some advantages to it, i mean i have never had to carry a piece of hardware if a man was around, for some reason they feel inclined to carry it for me.  Leaves my hands free to drink a coffee on the way, but yeah a lot of IT people i work with see a woman IT, and are shocked and amazed at the rarity of it, but still treat you like you know less.  Especially when they take 6 months to try and fix something that i fixed the day i was hired....  something has to be said for experience.

I have also discovered that using a cherry picker in a skirt to rewire and fix security cameras is considered "Sexy" to construction crews...
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NatalieRene

Quote from: Izumi on September 29, 2010, 01:34:56 PM
Welcome to life as a woman, the bra burning is to the right >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am also in IT, but have learned there is some advantages to it, i mean i have never had to carry a piece of hardware if a man was around, for some reason they feel inclined to carry it for me.  Leaves my hands free to drink a coffee on the way, but yeah a lot of IT people i work with see a woman IT, and are shocked and amazed at the rarity of it, but still treat you like you know less.  Especially when they take 6 months to try and fix something that i fixed the day i was hired....  something has to be said for experience.

I have also discovered that using a cherry picker in a skirt to rewire and fix security cameras is considered "Sexy" to construction crews...

Sadly I can't burn my bra. I need it for support. It is not comfortable to be walking around and having them bounce, especially if I have to walk fast to keep up. My Mom and sisters are large chested and I have inherited it as well. In just under nine months I have out grown my 36B bras and graduated to 36C. Hence the men's wandering eyes.

Oh my God.  :icon_redface: I would be mortified if I had to do that with a skirt on. You realize they where probably trying to get under you from the best angle to look under your skirt and sneak a peek? If I had to do that I would stand with my legs crossed at the very least.

I got the problem solved today but my boss took me aside and said you did good but next time try not to be so emotional. Baring in mind all I did was interject my opinion about what was wrong and then insist on it when they tried to dismiss it.
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Northern Jane

Only 50 points? You are doing good! LOL!

I have been around for a LONG time and I guess I got  used to it decades ago. However I have been 23 years in the same company now and the guys have figured out who knows their stuff and who BS'es. It is hard on their ego but they WILL ask when they get tired of beating their head against the wall.

Mostly I don't sweat it - let them do it their way and I will fix it when they give up LOL!
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Izumi

Quote from: NatalieRene on September 29, 2010, 02:04:11 PM
Sadly I can't burn my bra. I need it for support. It is not comfortable to be walking around and having them bounce, especially if I have to walk fast to keep up. My Mom and sisters are large chested and I have inherited it as well. In just under nine months I have out grown my 36B bras and graduated to 36C. Hence the men's wandering eyes.

Oh my God.  :icon_redface: I would be mortified if I had to do that with a skirt on. You realize they where probably trying to get under you from the best angle to look under your skirt and sneak a peek? If I had to do that I would stand with my legs crossed at the very least.

I got the problem solved today but my boss took me aside and said you did good but next time try not to be so emotional. Baring in mind all I did was interject my opinion about what was wrong and then insist on it when they tried to dismiss it.

well the cherry picker did have a solid bottom to it and had solid sides, at most they could get  a quick peak of something when i climbed in or maybe a flash of bra when i put on the harness for safety.  Kind of an emergency situation, i really didnt dress for that kind of work that day, expecting it to be slow, my mistake. 

Still even with all the disadvantages that living as a woman can bring, they pale in comparison to finally be able to express myself fully.  It feels good to live as a woman, even with the additional stress.
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pretty pauline

Quote from: Izumi on September 30, 2010, 02:09:12 PM


Still even with all the disadvantages that living as a woman can bring, they pale in comparison to finally be able to express myself fully.  It feels good to live as a woman, even with the additional stress.
Absolutely agree, never had any regrets, pressures at work by men with outdated attitudes towards women, Iv got use to it over the years, but it still feels good to be a woman.
p
If your going thru hell, just keep going.
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Nigella

welcome to womanhood and yeah that sum's up the male attitude OK.

There are side benefits, men hold the doors open, get out of the way when your walking on the footpath, offer to buy you coffee, fix things for you, ask to help you, life heavy things for you, etc, etc. And that's without any flutter of the eyelashes, lol. Its all very funny really and I have to smile to myself, its like there's some kind of hidden laws of behaviour going on.


Stardust
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NatalieRene

Quote from: Izumi on September 30, 2010, 02:09:12 PM
well the cherry picker did have a solid bottom to it and had solid sides, at most they could get  a quick peak of something when i climbed in or maybe a flash of bra when i put on the harness for safety.  Kind of an emergency situation, i really didnt dress for that kind of work that day, expecting it to be slow, my mistake. 

Still even with all the disadvantages that living as a woman can bring, they pale in comparison to finally be able to express myself fully.  It feels good to live as a woman, even with the additional stress.

Yeah I haven't run into that kind of issue but there is the potential that I might have to get up on a ladder. I hadn't really thought about that but maybe I should leave a change of cloths at work in the form of a pair of pants and matching shirt so I don't have to worry about if I'm wearing a skirt getting me in a tight spot.

Quote from: stardust on September 30, 2010, 09:32:49 PM
welcome to womanhood and yeah that sum's up the male attitude OK.

There are side benefits, men hold the doors open, get out of the way when your walking on the footpath, offer to buy you coffee, fix things for you, ask to help you, life heavy things for you, etc, etc. And that's without any flutter of the eyelashes, lol. Its all very funny really and I have to smile to myself, its like there's some kind of hidden laws of behaviour going on.


Stardust

Yeah I know you two are right. I do so enjoy the benefits. Plus I really did hate being told to man up and carry around heavy equipment all the time. Finally they don't try to talk sports to me or fart, scratch their butts and ask me to pull their finger in my presence anymore.
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valyn_faer

We always hear about the glass ceiling, but we never hear about the glass cellar that keeps men trapped in the most dangerous, crappy jobs in our society. For example, 24 of the 25 worst jobs are occupied almost exclusively by men and all of the most dangerous, hazardous jobs are occupied almost exclusively by men. Also, 92% of all occupational deaths occur to men, and of the 15 industries actually projected to grow despite the recession, 13 are dominated by women. Be grateful that you'll never have to work in a warehouse that has no air conditioning in an Arizona summer when it's 115 degrees outside like thousands of men. My step-dad has skin cancer from a lifetime of driving a mixer truck and pouring concrete in AZ. My mom didn't contract cancer from her job--teaching elementary school. American society has a very biased and one-sided way of looking at gender. I would personally rather experience a glass ceiling than a glass cellar. At least with a glass ceiling I know my life won't be at risk. Also, women live on average 7 years longer than men. In 1920, women lived on average about 2 years longer. Guess what changed. I'll give you a hint: it's not biology.

Furthermore, here's an analogy for how American society looks at gender inequality. Let's say a man has 8 apples and the woman next to him has 5 apples. People see this and jump to the conclusion that the woman is disadvantaged and that she has fewer apples because of discrimination. However, some of us dig a little deeper to see what's really going on and, when we do, we discover that 6 of the man's 8 apples are rotten, they're of no use to him. This leaves him with only 2 good apples. However, the woman only has 1 rotten apple, which leaves her with 4 good apples. This means that, in all actuality, she has it twice as good as the man, even though on the surface it seems like she has it worse. This is pretty much what's going on in our society now. Well, in the U.S., anyway. I can't speak for other nations. The numbers used in this analogy are, of course, irrelevant. The point is that women actually have it better than men now, even though it sometimes seems like we don't, and there is quite a bit of evidence that shows this. However, it's not politically fashionable to discuss this evidence, and it doesn't make headlines because it doesn't elicit fear. Fear sells the news. It is politically fashionable, though, to view women as victims and men as the "evil oppressors with their evil penises of death," and negatively stereotyping men in the media elicits fear, which sells the news.

Now, I know what you're probably thinking, "Hey, wait a minute. Don't women earn less money?" Well, yes and no. While the Census Bureau does report that women earn 80% of what men earn, this is a raw figure and makes no attempt to isolate such variables as field, subfield, years of experience, etc. In fact, the Census Bureau makes no mention of this being for "same work," "equal work," or "comparable work" (all three terms have a slightly different meaning, yet are used interchangeably). The Census Bureau also reports that never married men, who don't have children, are college educated, and work full time actually make 85% of what their female counterparts make. The Census Bureau also reports that, when it comes to part-time work, women make 110% of what their male counterparts make. So, again, do women earn less? It depends. However, that's not an easy answer and most Americans want easy answers. And, of course, claiming that women earn 80 cents for every dollar a man makes (which is actually a manipulation of the statistic) helps paint women as victims and men as "evil oppressors with their evil penises of death."
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mistressstevie

I thank you very much for the description of the glass cellar.  I have never read it wo well put in a single paragraph.  I will be doing research on this term as it clears up a job market inequity that I have wondering what it is called for years. 

Men are expected to take on a bit more economic risk--again in general terms as there are always exceptions.  That accounts for the participation in the riskier professions.  Asuming people understand the risks there should be some premium attached to the wages for the labor. 

-mS
 
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Izumi

Quote from: valyn_faer on October 03, 2010, 04:12:49 PM
We always hear about the glass ceiling, but we never hear about the glass cellar that keeps men trapped in the most dangerous, crappy jobs in our society. For example, 24 of the 25 worst jobs are occupied almost exclusively by men and all of the most dangerous, hazardous jobs are occupied almost exclusively by men. Also, 92% of all occupational deaths occur to men, and of the 15 industries actually projected to grow despite the recession, 13 are dominated by women. Be grateful that you'll never have to work in a warehouse that has no air conditioning in an Arizona summer when it's 115 degrees outside like thousands of men. My step-dad has skin cancer from a lifetime of driving a mixer truck and pouring concrete in AZ. My mom didn't contract cancer from her job--teaching elementary school. American society has a very biased and one-sided way of looking at gender. I would personally rather experience a glass ceiling than a glass cellar. At least with a glass ceiling I know my life won't be at risk. Also, women live on average 7 years longer than men. In 1920, women lived on average about 2 years longer. Guess what changed. I'll give you a hint: it's not biology.

Furthermore, here's an analogy for how American society looks at gender inequality. Let's say a man has 8 apples and the woman next to him has 5 apples. People see this and jump to the conclusion that the woman is disadvantaged and that she has fewer apples because of discrimination. However, some of us dig a little deeper to see what's really going on and, when we do, we discover that 6 of the man's 8 apples are rotten, they're of no use to him. This leaves him with only 2 good apples. However, the woman only has 1 rotten apple, which leaves her with 4 good apples. This means that, in all actuality, she has it twice as good as the man, even though on the surface it seems like she has it worse. This is pretty much what's going on in our society now. Well, in the U.S., anyway. I can't speak for other nations. The numbers used in this analogy are, of course, irrelevant. The point is that women actually have it better than men now, even though it sometimes seems like we don't, and there is quite a bit of evidence that shows this. However, it's not politically fashionable to discuss this evidence, and it doesn't make headlines because it doesn't elicit fear. Fear sells the news. It is politically fashionable, though, to view women as victims and men as the "evil oppressors with their evil penises of death," and negatively stereotyping men in the media elicits fear, which sells the news.

Now, I know what you're probably thinking, "Hey, wait a minute. Don't women earn less money?" Well, yes and no. While the Census Bureau does report that women earn 80% of what men earn, this is a raw figure and makes no attempt to isolate such variables as field, subfield, years of experience, etc. In fact, the Census Bureau makes no mention of this being for "same work," "equal work," or "comparable work" (all three terms have a slightly different meaning, yet are used interchangeably). The Census Bureau also reports that never married men, who don't have children, are college educated, and work full time actually make 85% of what their female counterparts make. The Census Bureau also reports that, when it comes to part-time work, women make 110% of what their male counterparts make. So, again, do women earn less? It depends. However, that's not an easy answer and most Americans want easy answers. And, of course, claiming that women earn 80 cents for every dollar a man makes (which is actually a manipulation of the statistic) helps paint women as victims and men as "evil oppressors with their evil penises of death."

I would have to agree with this.  The recession hasn't hit women as much due to the positions they typically hold.  For example administrative staff instead of general labor, nurses, doctors, legal, technical, etc..  Typically the women you see in construction are not labor but either administrative and management types, so when the recession hits the men in general labor get hit first before they start cutting higher ups, so in a way  women typically chose more safe (as in stable) jobs then men do which is why they are keeping their jobs now, and men are losing them.

As far as money goes, i think i am just not assertive enough when i ask for my starting salary, i am probably worth a lot more, but settle for less to make sure i get the job I want, i wonder if other people are the same way, or if someone quotes you a salary you just take it instead of demanding your worth more....
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