Intolerance in gay community worse than in straight?

[kyril]

I just want to say that this hasn't been my experience and my gay friends and new acquaintances have been incredibly accepting. I do hang out mostly with some very political gays, so they're more trans-aware than your average gay clubgoer, but I haven't had a problem with the clubgoers either.

[Alexmakenoise]

Mots of the LGB people I knew in high school and college were accepting of trans people.  The few who weren't seemed insecure about their own identities.

However I wouldn't feel comfortable coming out to the older gay guys I know in the small town where I live now.  A lot of them have a narrow definition of what is acceptable and are quick to write off anyone or anything that doesn't conform to their standards.  The younger gay people here seem a lot more open-minded, though.

[Cowboi]

In most cases if a man grabbed a ciswoman's breast in a straight bar, she would probably punch him in the face, a couple other guys would also probably hit him, he'd be immediately escorted out, the police would be called, and he probably would be arrested. In a GLBT venue grabbing boobs and other parts of the body without permission is much more tolerated.

I actually have to disagree with you to an extent. Being someone who was raised by people who expected me to be female forever I was taught many many things about how to assume men will treat you as a woman. One of the biggest issues is a lack of respect when it comes to places like bars (although I too have noticed this lack of respect seems to be higher in gay bars regardless of rather or not you're a transwoman or a ciswoman). It is to be expected that a man will grab you, touch you, rub on you on the dance floor, whatever. It is always advised to go with groups of friends and very rarely do you ever see young women go out to bars without a friend or two or even a boyfriend in tow. This is one of the reasons why you see that! It isn't just about going out and having fun, people can go to a bar alone and have fun drinking and dancing, it's about protection.

I think it is worse in gay bars though, even in the gay community here I see many many men who think it is okay to grab women without permission. Hell they even grab my breast sometimes, and this comes from men who are my friends who I KNOW have no issue with my identity... it is merely a joke to them. Not a joke because it bothers me, it is a joke regardless of how I react.

It's some kind of creepy inner circle thing we missed out on lol.

I don't know if I even made my point in this post or not. Basics are I agree but I disagree, I think it's more common than you may feel it is for a ciswoman to be in this exact same situation with no help from strangers or the men nearby unless she happens to be with friends or be a regular in the place.

[Cowboi]

I also forgot to mention one other difference is that ciswomen are taught that this behavior is to be expected from straight men. They often don't complain about being groped or touched in places like bars because it is simply how it is. When you are taught to expect it you react to it differently. People who were raised female in our society are taught early on the expression, "Boys will be boys." And sadly this expression is still used to describe adult males as those women get older.

[kyril]

I'd like to echo a lot of what Cowboi said about straight men in straight bars.

As far as gay men in gay bars and clubs...well, unlike in the straight places, it's not just the women they're feeling up. In fact, it's not even mostly the women. Gay bars and clubs are places where there is a...relaxation of personal boundaries, especially among men. They're oases of sorts for gay men in a homophobic culture where men have very little physical contact with anybody outside of contact sports and sexual relationships.

It has to be understood that gay clubs are men's space - specifically gay men's space (nearly all other men's spaces in existence are for hetero men). They're analogous to (though nothing like) women's spaces. Unlike women's spaces, gay bars that aren't sex clubs don't usually turn away people born with the wrong genitalia. But they're created for gay men, by gay men, to fill a specific need - a need for a certain type of safety that is analogous to (though, again, not at all similar to) the safety women seek in women's spaces. Part of that is the need to feel safe touching other people and being touched. And so the unwritten rules of touch in a gay bar are drastically different from the rules of touch on the street or in a hetero space.

[Britney_413]

I'm not saying this doesn't happen in straight bars and clearly it does. It just seems like it is more common in gay bars and more tolerated there. There is an increasing cultural problem in the U.S. in my opinion where there is less discretion being used by people. In other words, people are supposed to know how to act around certain people at certain times and in certain places. This is becoming less common. First and foremost, you don't go around touching people without their permission, period. It can start a fight or get you thrown in jail. Generally increased touching goes with increased familiarity. If you don't know someone at all then you start by shaking their hand. As you get to know them better then maybe a pat on the back is fine. Then it might progress to a quick hug or side hug. Only if you two know each other well and are comfortable with it is a cheek kiss fine, a solid hug, or things of that nature.

Anything more in my opinion is something reserved for people who are dating and generally doesn't belong in a public place. You don't go around grabbing breasts, butts, or crotches in public places including bars. Not only is it crude behavior, it is illegal. I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would walk up to a complete stranger they have never had an interaction with in their life and just kiss or grab them in in an inappropraite place. I try to avoid fights but when this does happen to me I do grab their arm and remove it quickly and give them a stern warning to never touch me again. Should it continue, I'm bashing them in the face and probably kicking them in the crotch. I don't care if these gay bars are "safe zones" to keep out homophobia. That doesn't mean everyone who walks in the door is consenting to be touched. I have no problem suing a place that allows it if it happens to me and I have no problem reporting such venues to the liquor board and other regulatory agencies. It is criminal behavior, plain and simple.

[JessicaR]

This is my experience, also.  Among liberals, I find a great deal of virulent hatred and slander toward any number of groups, including transsexuals.  The most snide and catty remarks I've ever heard were by homosexual males in Seattle, and by far the most directly hateful and angry were from lesbians in the same place.  When I mentioned transsexuality among some straight liberals, once, they made it into a topic of disgusted humor.

Among the right-wing folks, such things don't come up.  It's simply not appropriate conversation; many of us may be gay and a few my be trans, but those are strictly private matters and outside of the public sphere.  We discuss the constitution, our businesses, candidates, platforms, kids, guns, trucks, chicks, and so forth, but we don't discuss other people's sex lives.

Even when one fellow made out with some guys when drunk, only his friends could tease him and it always in a friendly manner.

- N

I attended the Transunited New England march and rally this weekend... Funny... I didn't see any conservatives.... I did, however, hear a stirring speech by Bet Power, speaking out against the oppression sought by the religious right wing. I suggest that Republican Transsexuals are delusional. Ugh!!!

[lisagurl]

I suggest that Republican Transsexuals are delusional. Ugh!!!

Republican and Conservative are not the same thing. The south was democratic and wants government help but has Conservative values. It only votes republican because they were sold out by the Democrats with the civil rights laws. The north is very much pro big business but was sold out by the republicans when they went to Conservative values.

[glendagladwitch]

Well, anyone who thinks that GLB people aren't at least as intolerant of T people as straight people can be should google Janice Raymond.  She's a prominent lesbian feminist scholar and university professor who wrote, "All transsexuals rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves .... Transsexuals merely cut off the most obvious means of invading women, so that they seem non-invasive."

Monica Roberts has pointed out Raymond's influence among senior staff at HRC, and HRC's Executive Director Elizabeth Birch's virulent opposition in 1995 to trans inclusion in ENDA: http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/3229/

Also remember that trans women were not allowed to go the Michigan Womyn's Music festival until 2006:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Trans 

There's something ironic about feminists complaining about "male privilege," and then witholding "female privilege" from tras women.

And of course, I think we've all seen Dirt's prejudice against trans men.

I know this evidence is all one sided in that it makes lesbians look worse than gays, but I've heard gays say some horrible, horrible things, and seen them discriminate agaisnt trans people in employment. 

I'm not saying GLB people are worse than the "straights," but the prejudice and hatred are out there in the GLB community.  I hope none of you have to encounter it directly.

[rite_of_inversion]

I think Janice Raymond has done more to discredit the field of Philosophy for me than anyone else.

If you want to make sweeping assertions about a group of people, you'd better have some meticulous research behind it or I will think you're a crackpot, and she's a crackpot. I assume the feminists swallowed her drivel out of ignorance, but that's a charitable interpretation.

Anyway, having just gotten here, I won't say how much Janice Raymond's spouting being taken seriously at all by anyone offends me...I'd rather not like to get the boot for cussing profusely.

Look, transwomen make natural feminists, having been treated as male when younger.  When they start presenting as female, they start getting treated as subtly less.  Because that's not their initial social climate, they see it even more clearly than born women do, and they don't like it at all.

At least that's what my wife tells me.  Besides that, it makes sense to me.  If it doesn't make sense to you, please feel free to tell me off.
(reason for edit-the visit of the typo fairy)

[Gia]

That's normal, from my experience.  I used to live in the gay ghetto of my city, and regularly heard similar expressions of disgust.  I've never actually stood witness to a comprehensive enumeration of objects, though.

- N

Whatever they are, with a hater list like that or ghetto bangers residence... none of them that agree with that discrimination are gay.

That is just evident of how such groupies ruin it for those who are gay. Those kind of groupies try to argue with people to make the word "gay" mean something other than what it originally meant.

I went into a bar the other night. My friend told me it was a gay bar and wanted to check it out. I went in with her, and quickly found they didn't like me because I was too gay and too femme. With a poster labeled F.A.G.... I quickly got the hint I should leave. I respected this difference.

[Kentrie]

Every straight person I've told has accepted me. The Bisexual people have accepted me. This boy who is gay at my school doesn't say anything but him and this lesbian girl were talking about me in the back. The lesbian girl once told me "If you have sex with a girl, I don't care if you're transgender or not then it's still lesbian sex" and that ripped me up really bad. I thought they would be the accepting ones but they're not

[Darrin Scott]

I've been really ticked about this more than anything recently. Like I've said, it's more about the L and the G and forget about the B and the T. I swear I'm losing faith in humanity.

[Mrs Erocse]

     It amazes me how redundant the world truly is. We fought a civil war to free black slaves.....No figure. Why can't everyone simply see that was wrong from the start. So many people claim to be religious yet the most simple rule is overlooked, " Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself." We all want acceptance.  Yet in the same breath refuse acceptance to others. 
     It takes so long for the world to see what is right. It wasn't until the 60's that blacks were integrated into schools. This is 100 yrs after the civil war. I only use this as an example to show how incompetant, slow, mentally challenged the world can be. The same slow inadequate unfair treatment is happening to the LGBT community. Information, acceptance, and aid should be afforded to all equally. No matter who you are, what nationality, what religion, color, sex, or what your sex preference is. Though several different types of people are combined in the term LGBT, acceptance of eachother is key. If we all treated eachother the way we wanted to be treated it would be so awesome.  At best we can be the example to pave the road for others.