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How Gay are You? How Gay are We?

Started by GinaDouglas, October 25, 2010, 03:49:59 PM

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GinaDouglas

We are the T in LGBTetc, but are we really?

Obviously, we have benefitted from the Gay Rights movement, legally.  But do we really benefit from the association, as a whole?

Our worst problem, as a group, is that too many people view as breaking a substantial sexual taboo.  When we partner with gays, are we not feeding that wrong perception, that we are is about sexual preference?

Might we not be better served to break from Gays, and educate people that we change genders because of something intrinsic to us, that has little if anything to do with who we want to have sex with?

Because I am a woman attracted to women, I consider myself a lesbian.  But there are plenty of people, lesbians amongst them, who don't consider me lesbian.  I actually had friends who asked me if, now that I am living with a woman, am I "going to change back?".

Actually, when I was a solo act, I had a certain set of problems.  Now that I am a member of a couple, I have a whole different set of problems.  Our pastor explained it to us this way.  "When you are by yourself, your sexuality is an abstract concept to most people, and it is only irritating to them at a certain level.  But when you are out as a couple, now it's concrete.  People who don't approve, they feel like you are confronting them, shoving your sexuality in their faces."

So, this leaves me wondering.  Others in our community, how gay do you feel?  Do you feel an affinity with gay people, community, fraternity...?  Or not so much? 

Do you feel that gay people accept you, embrace you, support you...?  Or not so much?

Personally, I feel like the unwanted step-sister at the Gay Cinderella Ball.  I get the feeling that gay people like/accept/support me LESS than the average straight person.  I'd estimate that a gay person is three times more likely to make a rude remark to me, than a straight person.  The straight person (or cisgender/cissexual) is probably more likely to be thinking rude thoughts, but the gay person more likely to say something rude.  I get the sense that most gay people feel we hold back their progress by being too different, that we make them uncomfortable, and that we hurt their image/reputation, by being so public with our differentness, while they confine theirs to the privacy of home and gay establishments.

I also get "you're not a woman" (explicitly and implicitly) more from lesbians.  I think it's kind of an internal logic.  I am sexually attracted to women.  I am not sexually attracted to you.  You must be not a woman.

The other way to look it, for me, is to say: We are not straight, so we are gay.  Kinda defining gayness as the absence of straightness.

I think that, for us to make progress, we are eventually going to have to split from the Gay-Rights Movement.  Is that time upon us?
It's easier to change your sex and gender in Iran, than it is in the United States.  Way easier.

Please read my novel, Dragonfly and the Pack of Three, available on Amazon - and encourage your local library to buy it too! We need realistic portrayals of trans people in literature, for all our sakes
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jacob.ayden.averi

Well, I'm straight. By that I mean, I like girls. A lot. I've noticed that straight people seem to be more accepting to me than gay people. Of course, that isn't everybody. But lesbians seem to not like me because I'm a boy and gay guys seem to not like me cuz I'm a "girl." So either way I'm kinda screwed. It's complicated, I dunno.

clairezoey

im not gay. i love boobs. i love girl. they so preety and i think lesbian is hot..lol
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rejennyrated

Gina. I have to say that if the universe was nice and tidy and full of black and white yes/no answers you might have a point. As it is in the shades of grey which comprise the real world things are never so simple, because such a divorce could never be clean.

There are many of us who blur the nice boundaries that you wish to establish. Alison and I for example are bisexual, we are also in a relationship which, depending on whether you accept the validity of GRS or not is either Lesbian or Gay. So in a real sense we belong to all of the groups.

Quotewe change genders because of something intrinsic to us
and I can assure you that Gays and Lesbians ARE NOT so by a choice. They are equally that way because of something intrinsic to them. In fact the scientific evidence in favour of physical causes for sexual orientation is a LOT stronger than that for physical causes of ->-bleeped-<-.

In short  at present Gay and lesbian people are closer to being able to point to a hard coded genetic variance that causes their condition than we are. This means that the boot is, at present currently somewhat on the other foot. Yes there is now some emergent evidence for genetic and hormonal influences for us, but actually we have some catching up to do on that score, and in fact the very fact that people often accept the intrinsic nature of our condition whilst wrongly accusing gays and lesbians of making a lifestyle choice is one very good justification for some of their resentment of us!

In fact when you consider the facts you will find that far from being the obvious and very visible faction that you claim, once we have transitioned most of us vanish successfully back into society.

In terms of acceptance I don't see any difference. All sections of society are equally likely to say something rude (or not) in my experience.

What I do see is that as soon as we start fractionating the right wing so called moral majority, who actually are not moral and are probably not even a majority either will see us as isolated, and an easy target. In fact I would not be surprised if they were not actively trying to encourage this very kind of split.

So as someone who belongs to the intersex, trans, Gay, lesbian and Bi communities , and who since my successful treatment now feels myself to be cisgender again I say NO! Over my dead body will my heritage be torn apart like this.
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GinaDouglas

Quote from: rejennyrated on October 25, 2010, 04:40:39 PM

and I can assure you that Gays and Lesbians ARE NOT so by a choice. They are equally that way because of something intrinsic to them. In fact the scientific evidence in favour of physical causes for sexual orientation is a LOT stronger than that for physical causes of ->-bleeped-<-.

Oops!  That didn't really come out the way I meant it.  By no means did I intend to imply that anybody had choices in these matters.  The distinction I was trying to get at was this:

My gender issues are all about me, exclusively.  Gayness, by my definition, necessarily involves somebody else too.

If I was the last person on Earth, I'd still be a woman.  If I was the last person on Earth, I would be neither straight nor gay, because I wouldn't be in a relationship with someone else.

That was the distinction I was groping to understand, not anything, at all, about choice.
It's easier to change your sex and gender in Iran, than it is in the United States.  Way easier.

Please read my novel, Dragonfly and the Pack of Three, available on Amazon - and encourage your local library to buy it too! We need realistic portrayals of trans people in literature, for all our sakes
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GinaDouglas

Quote from: rejennyrated on October 25, 2010, 04:40:39 PM
Yes there is now some emergent evidence for genetic and hormonal influences for us,

A 2009 article in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism details the conclusions of a recent "Task Force".  The Etiology section is probably the best summary of where scientific thought is, regarding the causes of ->-bleeped-<-.  I think it is pretty much accepted that it's a developmental birth-defect that relates to hormone washes going awry; and the cutting edge science is trying to figure out exactly what happens and when, and in what different ways.

Of course there is always the interplay of nature and nurture involved, as with almost anything.
It's easier to change your sex and gender in Iran, than it is in the United States.  Way easier.

Please read my novel, Dragonfly and the Pack of Three, available on Amazon - and encourage your local library to buy it too! We need realistic portrayals of trans people in literature, for all our sakes
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spacial

When I first came to Susans' I thought of myself as a gay man who's been married to a woman for almost 30 years.

I suppose I fell into that because it was convienent, it compartmentalised some unresolved thoughts.

Now, I'm not so sure. My desires, when I was younger, were to be the female partner of a nice guy, a bit older than me.

I have no wish to cheat on my wife. No wish to not be married to her. I suppose all I'd really ask for, if the opportunty arose, is to have the ugly bits removed.

As for sex. I don't, in all honesty, have any ambitions now.

As far as societies preceptions are concrned. I get the impression that they would call almost anything that isn't very hetro, gay. Or they would more likely use another word.

As for parting from the gay movement, I am personally in favour. It seems to be happening over here with Stonewall. But we could find ourselves cast adrift if we don't try to organise.

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V M

Nothing boils my water quicker than being referred to as a gay guy

I am a woman born with a birth defect that I hope to correct at some time in the near future

Nothing against gay folks... Many are wonderful people, some are jerks

Anyway, I'm not interested in being a separatist or being corralled and labeled

I would imagine it could be likened to various racial and/or religious, political and financial issues with the name calling and ill behavior that goes with all that stuff

I am a human being and I support human rights
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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kyril

I am gay. Completely, totally, no question gay. I've had literally no trouble being accepted by my gay friends, I've been treated well in "the community" as a whole, I fit in. I'm family and it's obvious.

My thoughts on the matter: I'm not separating myself. No way, no how. Being gay is as much a core part of my identity as being trans. My closest friends have been gay since high school, maybe even down to middle school. The gays are the friends I went to when I decided to come out, they're the ones who teach me how to dress, they're the ones who flirt with me and dance with me and call me by the right pronouns every time.

On a larger scale, the gay community (barring HRC, Joe Solomonese, and Barney Frank) are the ones fighting for my right to be employed as a gay trans man. They're the ones who want me to be protected under hate crimes statutes. They're the ones who reliably support us in our right to use the right bathrooms, be on the right sports teams, access medical care and conduct our personal lives unmolested.

Neither gays nor trans people would be where we are without the support of the other (very much overlapping) community. That's a simple fact. I'll say what I say to those on both sides of the fence who suggest "divorcing": Be very careful what you wish for. You might get it.


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Octavianus

Gender identity has nothing to do with sexual preference, we all know that here. But while many people have come to understand or at least accept homosexuality over the years, transsexuality is less understood. I don't really know why these 2 are associated with each other. My hunches direct me to the misunderstanding of transsexuality.
When people define gender as being fixed to ones sex, a lot of straight trans people are forced in the gay cathegory. From this point of view it is not surprising that people make a mental connection between the two. That does not mean they are correct though.

In my case I consider myself a straight man and I have come to realize that ones gender and personality is far more important to me than ones genetic sex. It is understandable that many transpeople are irritated when they are falsely accused of being gay, but personally I am beyond caring. I for myself know who I love and why. If people will call me gay just because they got homosexuality defined in a different way than I have than that is regrettable. Naturally I will defend it but in the end it doesn't really matter anymore. Why do people make such an issue out of it? Is it because they want everything to be easily cathegorized? The world is not as black and white as people might think.
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Fencesitter

Many people think homosexuality is a "light" version of transsexuality, or transsexuality is homosexuality taken to the extreme. Indeed, quite a lot of "experts" still believe this, though that's utter nonsense. Anyway, we get lumped together by ignorants no matter whether we want it or not and have to deal with homophobia, as well as our partners (and, on top of that, transphobia of course).

Then again, unless you're asexual or you're one of the few who were "straight" both before and after transition in the view of the outside world ("oh, he was into girls, now he's a she and she's into boys"), at a certain point in your life, you kind of belong(ed) to the LGB group. So the personal/individual overlap between the LGB and the T is so huge that it would be difficult to pretend they're not related at all.
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Muffin

Is sexual orientation fixed? because I think it has changed for me during my life. But that was no doubt because I was lost about what was happening to me? If I dated girls in the past does that I mean I  was lesbian or straight? When not dating I was technically bi... but since starting HRT I'm now asexual.
I don't know what the future holds I guess I'm open to either still but that could change...again.
So I am open minded about this subject but the system wants us to be closed minded about it... and well... actually would prefer us to be straight, which makes it sound like a choice............. or no choice, in a way.... go figure.
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M.Grimm

I identify way more with being a gay man than I do with being a transman. This is not to say that I am ashamed of nor rejecting my transsexual status. It's just that I have always known myself to be 1) male and 2) attracted to men.

I've had nothing but friendly support from my expanding circle of gay male friends. I've encountered a little hostility from lesbians, but not from all lesbians. So far, if any straight, non-trans folks disapprove of me, they're keeping it to themselves and that's fine.

I wouldn't want to be divorced from the GLB community. I'm a part of it, either way. If I had to 'pick sides' I'd go be with my gay bros who've been there for me during my transition. I'd rather not pick sides.
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niamh

I am in favour of our association with the gay movement. Afterall, many T people are gay and there are some gay-identified people who eventually (also) identify as trans. There is strength in numbers. (Actually, as far as society is concerned most T-people are gay, we are either seen as gay before transition or gay after, or both...)

As a trans woman who is attracted to women I am gay.

Quote from: clairezoey on October 25, 2010, 04:09:35 PM
im not gay. i love boobs. i love girl. they so preety and i think lesbian is hot..lol

So you're gay....
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Alyssa M.

#14
I'm super-gay. Really, really, really, really gay. Hard-core lesbian, that's me. I'm such a dyke, Shiprock wishes it as much of a dyke as I am. Holland feels inadequate when I'm around.

Yeah, definitely gay.

--- edit ---

All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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Fencesitter

Quote from: Alyssa M. on October 26, 2010, 01:28:58 AM
I'm super-gay. Really, really, really, really gay. Hard-core lesbian, that's me. I'm such a dyke, Shiprock wishes it as much of a dyke as I am. Holland feels inadequate when I'm around.

Yeah, definitely gay.

Okay, so I wouldn't like to land on a lonely island with no one else but you after a shipwreck. Guess it would be nice to meet you, but in such a scenario, it would be very frustrating.  ;D
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sneakersjay

I'm gay.

Bottom line is I love men and want a relationship with a man.

I think I got off easy not having to grow up male and gay; I got to live as straight and be socially acceptable.  Yes I had body dysphoria and anxiety and the like about having an F body, but I do think it was easier.  The more gay men I meet my age, the more convinced I am.

Jay


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Octavianus

Quote from: Alyssa M. on October 26, 2010, 01:28:58 AM
I'm such a dyke, Shiprock wishes it as much of a dyke as I am. Holland feels inadequate when I'm around.

Now I will always think of you whenever I set foot outside my house.  ???

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Miniar




"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Kaelleria

I'm a girl... I'm attracted to guys ergo not gay. Simple as that. Being transgender has nothing to do with your sexual orientation.


The above ticker is meant as a joke! Laugh! Everyone knows the real zombie apocalypse isn't until 12/21/12....
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