Transgender man playing NCAA women's basketball

[girl_ashley]

Hormones or not, this still does nothing to help "legitimate" transwomen from being able to join womens teams/sports, the teams and sports of their hormonal gender.  Perception is huge and if transmen are allowed to play on women's teams (again, hormones or not) it will do nothing for, or even will set back, the rights of transwomen for playing on the proper teams.

Take for example the story of Michelle Dumaresq.  Or perhaps more recently, the story of Lana Lawless who is currently suing the LPGA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

http://www.bilerico.com/2010/10/trans_woman_sues_lpga.php

People are indeed ignorant and perception reigns.  Let's talk about the Pregnant Man for a moment.  I have a dear friend that works for an Americorps type organization that does sex education for students in the inner-city schools of Washington DC.  One of the things that has become apparent to her is that the kids are growing up now actually believing that men can get pregnant.  And we're talking about non-transmen specifically.  How flipped up is that?

As long as transmen play on the women's teams, transwomen will be forced to wrongly play on the men's teams.

Discuss.

[SnailPace]

Something that hasn't been brought up yet:

Kye has a basketball scholarship.  If he were disallowed to play on the woman's team, they would forcing him to drop out of college.

[girl_ashley]

Many of us lose our livelihoods due to coming out as trans.  One could also pay for college instead of attending under a scholarship.  So no, they would not be effectively forcing him to drop out.

He is lucky.  He is accepted by his peers and the school administration has changed his name in public records (it is unclear whether his legal documents have been changed).  As the school seems willing to change his name on the roster, one could certainly imagine the possibility of them extending a scholarship for him to play on the men's team.

[FallenLeaves]

It's hard to argue that people in America aren't morons and a lot of people will be able to understand the difference between gender identity and hormonal levels.  This man isn't exactly helping, but it's a battle for the most part I believe we have already won, aside from a few cases here and there. Most sports accept hormone levels now. I'm not sure I even completely agree with just the hormones deal though. Even if we change our hormone levels, we still get all those extra boosts from the testosterone during puberty (for most of us anyways). Any male to female that underwent HRT before puberty should be allowed to compete with women no questions asked, but I truly don't believe a male to female that underwent male puberty is in truly equal competition with genetic women. I think we should feel pretty lucky it has come as far it has. We have a distinct advantage in most sports, yet they're letting us slip through anyways because the gap is a lot smaller off testosterone. I think it's more of an issue that it would be MORE unfair to force those of us with female hormonal levels to compete with males than just to ignore the slight advantage we get over our GG counterparts. It's a pretty complex issue and honestly I'm amazed it has come as far as has considering gay marriage isn't even legal in most states.

[girl_ashley]

Be careful equating Gay rights with Trans rights.  It was not that long ago that the Human Rights Campaign did not support a trans-inclusive ENDA.  Gay and Lesbians still have great access to healthcare and partner benefits (granted, a lot of work left to do here too).  However, we are still discriminated against for access to basic healthcare.

I for one am not going to remain complacent or conceited for the progress that has already been made, though I am thankful for it.  There is still way too much work left to do and progress to be made for me to remain silent.

[Nero]

It's not like he's someone who set out to be a man on the women's team. He may not even have known he would ever transition (or even realized he was trans) when he accepted the scholarship. Why should he suddenly give up everything he's worked for when he hasn't even gone through transition yet? He's still on a physical par with the women he plays with.
Transition doesn't mean one should give up all one's other dreams.
Why should he be punished for coming out?

[girl_ashley]

You misunderstand me.  I am NOT advocating punishment.  This is also NOT an attack on transmen.  Nobody should be punished because they are trans!  I am merely advocating proper respect for one's choice in their gender identity and pointing out the disparity and injustice this will support against transwomen athletes.

[Jenn2716]

I don't really see how this trans man playing for a women's basketball team is going to be the downfall for all trans women who want to play on women's teams. In a perfect world, everyone would just relax and allow people to participate in the various groups and teams that align with their desired gender.  However, we have to be realistic and understand that when it comes to competitive sports some grey areas do exist. In order for a trans woman to compete at the highest level of most sports (Olympics, Commonwealth Games, etc) they must have completed SRS and have undergone at least 2 years of post-op hormone treatment. This is to allow for the woman's body enough time to fall within similar physical ranges (strength, endurance levels) of a genetic woman.

Is this fair? Well, yes and no. Some people think that such restrictions invalidate the gender identity of a trans woman who has not had SRS, but wants to compete in female athelethics.  But is it really fair to genetic women to have to compete with a woman who has the advantage of having the strength and endurance that comes with having a male body?

In the end, I think you have to respect that when it comes to competitive sports, the Olympic standard is the only fair way to go. If a trans woman has not completed SRS and post op HRT, then perhaps it would be better to stick to recreational sports. That way you can participate as the woman you truly are, without having to meet a specific standard of a sports governing body.  That's what I'm doing. I play recreational co-ed ice hockey as female, no problems so far.

[girl_ashley]

Many transwomen go through life without actually getting SRS (due to financial reasons, by choice, or what have you) but still live a full life as a woman, even at times with an identification card with a "F".  Am I hearing correctly that they shouldn't even be allowed to compete in sports as a woman?  But yet, even a transman that has not undergone SRS, maybe even only top surgery, should be allowed to compete in sports as men?

[Jenn2716]

Many transwomen go through life without actually getting SRS (due to financial reasons, by choice, or what have you) but still live a full life as a woman, even at times with an identification card with a "F".  Am I hearing correctly that they shouldn't even be allowed to compete in sports as a woman?

Short answer: yes.
If a transwoman wants to participate in competitive women's sports, then she has to meet the requirements as set by that sports governing body.  Those requirements are in place to make the playing field as level as possible for all participating athletes. 

Think of it this way, just because a trans woman cannot get pregnant doesn't make her any less of a woman. So if a trans woman who doesn't have SRS or post HRT isn't eligible to compete in high level women's sports, that shouldn't make her less of a woman either.  I don't really see the big deal here.

But yet, even a transman that has not undergone SRS, maybe even only top surgery, should be allowed to compete in sports as men?

I think  trans people participating in sports need to be looked at on a case by case basis, while keeping in mind the sports rules and regulations. Personally, I would prefer to see this trans man play on the men's basketball team. But if he wants to play on the women's team because of his scholarship or preference who are we to criticize. He is just taking advantage of an unusual situation.   It is not much different than a trans woman marrying a genetic woman in states where same-sex marriage is not legalized, but can do so because the trans woman is still considered legally male for one reason or another.  Sometimes when you are given lemons, you make lemonade.

[kyril]

As the school seems willing to change his name on the roster, one could certainly imagine the possibility of them extending a scholarship for him to play on the men's team.

Not a chance in Hell. He's never played men's basketball, he's not on hormone treatments, if he started tomorrow he still wouldn't catch up with his male peers in physical strength and speed and maturity for another ~5 years, and even then, he'll still be dramatically shorter than male NCAA players, which is a major issue unless he's a point guard. He wouldn't even make the team, much less get a scholarship.

I think you severely underestimate the difference between men's and women's sports.

[tori319]

Wow, I didn't realize this would become this big of a debate.The fact that he has a scholarship makes things very complicated.These days with so many college graduates being in debt  a scholarship sure helps a lot.I think that this is very fair, the reality is that even though we are still women, having our bodies run on T does give us an unfair advantage.It sucks but that's the way it is.I know it hurts to feel invalidated Ashley, but we have to be realistic about these things.

[JasminB]

Since the Caster Semenya story I've thought a lot about trans & intersex women in sports...I probably dont have a popular opinion but I personally believe the advantage of testosterone through puberty gives athletic quality's a natal female cant get in terms of long term bone structure, muscle mass etc .

Testosterone is a powerful horomone that gives you great physical advantage, -- especially if intersexed during puberty -  having lost a significant amount of strength since starting on HRT I can personally attest to it creating a lot of muscle with no physical work. But......that being said, due to my bone structure & (possibly density?) Im stronger than my natal female friends even though im the skinny'ist of them all (123 pounds at 6ft)

So my view is if you have had a significant amount of testosterone through puberty caused by intersex or ->-bleeped-<- (HRT)then you have a significant advantage over natal females & that should factor into your decision when choosing to compeat in the olympics.

Of course im all for trans-rights being a transexual myself but I believe when it comes to a game based on your physical makeup, being trans/inter is an advantage.

[kyril]

Well, the thing is that trans women on HRT might (possibly, on average) be advantaged over the average cis woman, but you're still within the range of normal female variability. After enough time on HRT your soft tissues are thoroughly female, and while there are some advantages provided by skeletal structure, they don't push you outside of female norms.

I don't know how long you've been on HRT, Jasmin, but the typical guideline is two full years. I don't know the particular science behind the guidelind so can't speak to whether it's long enough, but it's a fairly extended amount of time, it's not like "take spiro for 3 months and then come play women's hockey."

And for every sport where trans women might have an advantage due to skeletal structure that lasts after HRT (basketball, hockey...) there's a sport where being tall or solidly built or narrow-hipped is a disadvantage in the women's divisions (gymnastics, figure skating...) This is different from male musculature, which is advantageous in every sport (except for the female role in pairs skating).

[JasminB]

Well, the thing is that trans women on HRT might (possibly, on average) be advantaged over the average cis woman, but you're still within the range of normal female variability. 

Thats a good point, If your body does adhere within a range of normal female variability I guess judged by a giant data pool then there is no real difference 2+ years on hrt.

Definitely making me think more about the fairness of trans women in sports, I guess one could quote physical height being a factor in sports like netball but then again like you said in professional teams its not uncommon to see a league of 6ft natal girls.

Much to ponder thanks.

[Keroppi]

I don't know how long you've been on HRT, Jasmin, but the typical guideline is two full years. I don't know the particular science behind the guidelind so can't speak to whether it's long enough, but it's a fairly extended amount of time, it's not like "take spiro for 3 months and then come play women's hockey."

For the olympics (and all those at national level that simply follow the olympic policy), AFAIK it's 2 years *after* surgery unless one started pre-puberty. So that's more like at least 3 or 4 years.

[long.897]

I honestly don't see how gender identity matters AT ALL in the context of sports.  The fact that he's admitted to feeling male doesn't change how he plays the game at all; he's still undergone the female socialization in high school, and knows how to play in the context of women's sports.  Gender identity shouldn't come into play.  As far as strength/endurance etc go, it's the hormones and the puberty development that will affect this, NOT the gender identity.  If he chose to play and receive T therapy, yeah, he should be excluded solely for the fact that he's effectively using steroids.  No athlete should receive this undue advantage, even if they're receiving the steroids for legitimate medical reasons. 

Now for the female transthletes.  We've been socialized in sports as male, and will probably play in a more masculine way; for better or for worse, that's how it is.  I think that many (most?) of us are willing to disregard this, and that's fine.  Maybe it doesn't play as large a role as I'd like to think.  We cannot disregard the effects of male puberty though.  I'm 6'4-6'9 (it varies by how my neck/back are that day.)  I've undergone MALE puberty to grow as large as I have, and it's important to consider the effects that something like that might have on female sports.  My T levels happen to be very low naturally (off topic, doesn't matter for this thread,) but I would still experience a significant benefit when it comes to sports in which size makes a difference (e.g basketball or swimming.)  Even if I had an orchi, had estrogen etc for years, the benefits conferred by developing male won't be fully negated.