When close-minded therapists turn you crazy

[Fencesitter]

I've had some issues with my counselor/therapist being very...gender essentialist - i.e. "Girls don't do X" and  "Only boys do Y", which is very irritating.
Consequently, I'm changing to someone else - not to mention that I've had all my treatment for GID now, so there is no requirement to see a gender therapist.

Good choice. "Girls don't do X, boys don't do Y" is soooo 50ies! Most therapists are not like that any more, but some tend to fall back on those clichés when they have to deal with trans people. Pfffft!

I definitely have an antagonistic relationship with my therapist (who's the kind of therapist to refer to post-transition trans women as "he", and tried to cheer me up by telling a story about how "he" managed to "fool" his partner into thinking "he" was a woman for years). She asked me the question of what sex I am in my sexual fantasies - I told her the truth: Female.

I came in to session 1 with high hopes. I left more depressed than I've ever been in my entire life, and haven't recovered fully since. At this stage, she is my enemy - my nemesis - and I have to defeat her.

So, yeah, I'm right there with you.

Yeah, this is very awkward. Makes you feel like a suffragist going to a 19th century therapist for "hysteria". Hope you'll recover soon.

When I first brought it up with my psychiatrist he started down the line of genetics, and when I stoped him in that track by saying that the currently possible is good enough. Well then he just continued, saying that he had seen a dozen trans women and that it was easy to tell.

At the end of that same session he tried to tell me that my hands are too big, I mean seriously!! How is that supposed to help???

Well I don't know your case personally. I know that a bad passing due to unfair physical aspects may be very bothersome, so maybe it might have made some sense that he told you this. But I know a lot of trans women who get read as female without a problem - and even some transvestite guys. Moreover, saying "I know X trans people and I can read them all" does not mean anything, cause those he cannot read - he does not know that they are trans.

My response when I had a therapist who attacked me like that was to blackmail her back: I told her if she didn't respect me, I would kill myself.  She was clearly distressed by it, and things escalated into a pretty epic shouting match where we were both tossing around accusations and delegitimizing each other.  Of course she was perfectly capable of recognizing abusive behavior when it was directed at her, but completely blind to it when she directed the same behavior at me.  After that fight I walked out and never went back.  She sent me a letter pleading with me to return and saying we were at a critical point in my therapy, ahahaha no. 

Well I don't know if it's a great solution to blackmail back... but it's good that the therapy broke up.

As for how to better deal with that situation stay far afield of any therapist who are "psychoanalytic," "psychodynamic," or mention Freud without laughing.  Unfortunately that doesn't cover all the subtly nasty gatekeeper types.  In that case I admire Fencesitter's tactic of both responding to the question and turning it back on the asker.  I can hardly believe you asked him if he was looking for tips on his own sex life, that's fantastic.  It still seems to make you uncomfortable though, Fence-- you know that if you don't respond in a certain "right" way you are being invalidated.  And even though you are in my estimation a BAMF, all that manipulation and disrespect would hurt anyone.

Not quite sure about it. Keeping away from "psychoanalysts" etc. is certainly a good idea, you're right.

I knew my therapist was a psychoanalyst. Which means, his background was as "scientific" as astrology or alchemy. But we had a peculiar relationship, I was quite open about the antagonistic surroundings of our relationship right from the start, telling him, I'm here to get T, you're here to see if it's okay that I get it, so it's not gonna be easy for us. I also told him bluntly right away that if he comes up with an ink blot test (Rorschach) or something like that, I'd be out right away as for me, that was like astrology or hand reading.  And that I'd also leave if he had a couch where I should lay down babbling without seeing him, as this establishes a power pattern. And that I was happy to see that there was no couch. That's how our relationship started. Afterwards, I kept my mouth shut concerning the antagonistic situation in which out relationship was placed, however. It was like the elephant in the room. But sometimes, I alluded to it indirectly with my humor.

I also have a lot of humor, though often absurd, cynical or black humor, and can't help myself using it. And I did not hide that away during our meetings, used it a lot, like always, for many things and topics. So I could also ask him bluntly if he wanted any ideas for his private sex life when he asked me this kind of questions about my sex life, without him hating me for that. It was clear that it was not just a joke, but hinted at the antagonistic situation. But we both laughed.

You often don't really see the extent of the damage to yourself until it's all over.  That was and is definitely true of me.  I still hear that witch's voice in my head sometimes telling me there must be a "reasonable explanation" for my gender identity and I start to wonder what "issues" in my life could have caused me to be me.  It's a stupid line of thought; I know I either deal honestly with myself or waste my time in fantasy land, and I pick the former.  But it's still there subconsciously as an intense fear reaction whenever something reminds me of her. 

Yeah, it's a bit like being in a cult. It's not that bad as long as you're there but afterwards, you find out what happened and it's nasty and pops up over and over again... These people are authorities, finally, so you gotta take them seriously, aren't you?

[dustbunny]

- Sorry, long posting again, but I really need to rant -

Hello,

My therapist was a gentle old guy, but very old-fashioned in his view of transgenders/transsexuals. I had no other choice, the only other gender therapist in my region was well-known as being very bad at dealing with FTMs. Well spending time with him was much more a nuisance than a help, though he tried his best.  Well at least I got the letter for hormones after going through this "therapy" for about one year. And that was why I was there, so why complain?

Why I complain is - you have to deal with a system in which the therapist may be less a partner and more an antagonist. You know you want to get the hormones - he has the power to allow or deny them to you. That's annoying in itself, but when you also have to deal with a close-minded view of transsexuality, sometimes studied decades ago, then it can really become nasty.

First of all, let me say that the SoC system does not work well as a filter. I was nervous there and very aware about when he raised his eyebrow in doubt about one of my remarks, and when he nodded happily while he noted stuff. You get a learning effect quite fast, like a horse which learns to react to its master when "counting" with his hooves. Horses can't count, but they react to their masters' reactions and learn when exactly they have to stop counting, as their masters become relaxed right then.

But what really bothered me were the sometimes stupid questions. We agreed upon a 24/7 real life experience for one year without hormones, which is stupid, but he was very insisting on the no-hormone-"gender role change". Let me tell you that's ridiculous as I had no passing before hormones no matter what I tried, but my genetics hinted that it would work quite fast once on Testosterone (which it indeed did - I'm a mediterranean type). But well, the "full-time real life test" without hormones is a holy cow for most therapists in Gernany. Well I got asked silly questions in "gender therapy" before hormones:

"Do you use the male bathrooms all the time now?"
Honest answer would have been: I go to the bathroom I get pointed to as I don't want to freak out people. I also went to the closest bathroom no matter what sex at that time, and had done this occasionally before. Who cares a sh...? I had had a chronical bladder irritation for years, so gender really becomes unimportant there. At worst, you apologize towards the guys and tell them about the bladder problem, that you need to pee NOW and look demonstratively the other way round and hide your eyes demonstratively so they know you don't want to have a look at their penises. And at my workplace, people had transformed the bathrooms into unofficial unisex bathrooms long ago as you don't get your pee breaks paid there so you rush to the next free toilet. That would have been the honest answer.

But I saw him become very aware and waiting for something to write on his notepad, his body became tensed. He wasn't like that often, so I assumed this was an important question which I was not to mess up.
Well I lied at him and told him I always used male bathrooms. He asked more, I described my lies to him. I feel loyal to my company anyway, so I wouldn't tell about their toilet problem, which is illegal in Germany. Plus I really don't see why using male bathrooms before passing as male matters at all for diagnosis. So I see no moral problem here, he was just a gatekeeper. He seemed satisfied and noted down the stuff.

And then I asked him why on earth he asked me that? (I had already learned like a "counting horse" from reading body language that you first answer, then ask why the question had been asked, and without saying that you think that question's ridiculous.)

- "Well it's very important for the diagnosis, because of the RLE. You need to gather experience in your new gender role, and toilets are very very important here"

And I secretely thought WTF???

Later on, I joked with a couple of (non-trans) friends about that and we laughed aloud. In Harry Potter, there's an annoying toilet phantom in their school. Maybe there was one to be found as well in male bathrooms, telling me secrets about my gender identity. Or I could somehow figure out what maleness meens by visiting the male bathrooms and getting the esoteric "male vibrations" there. Or maybe there was something miraculous in male bathrooms' tap water helping me for the diagnosis. We all laughed a lot there. My shrink must probably have read somewhere in the shrinks' literature how important bathrooms are. Well of course they are, imagine New York City without public bathrooms, but well...

Well, at another meeting, he asked me as what I saw myself in my sexual fantasies, and fancy myself, as a male or as a female? He became very tense again, and I became the counting horse again.
But I first told him that this is very private and I considered it none of his business.
He insisted and told me that on my request why? that it was very important for the diagnosis.
Then he stared, very intensely. And I knew I had to save my ass here, as this question seemed to be central.
I fell back into the counting horse mode again and said what seemed appropriate for a transsexual. I had not been prepared to that question, so I could only guess. And ->-bleeped-<-, I did not want to get the hormones denied. No problem with thinking them over or delaying them for myself, but it would have been humiliating for me to get them denied by a "toilets-are-very-important"-shrink. I had no trust in him after the toilet experience. I would have loved to get a good differential diagnosis, but not with that guy.

"I  always feel like a male there etc." (In reality, I just try to trick out the body-mind-descrepancy with various tricks, as when I masturbate, I get "wrong" physical sensations. And the tricks I use turn me neutral or cause a lot of gender-bending fantasies of all sorts and in all directions as work-arounds for my body dysphoria, I don't love them but these fantasies at least kind of work. But all that's none of his business and I don't know if he could ever understand that.)

He seemed satisfied, smiled and noted that. My horse counting act had succeeded.

After that session, however, at home, I searched like crazy to find out what relationship sexual fantasies might have with gender identity, esp. differential diagnosis. Unfortunately, I found nothing. I'd have loved to asked him, but I couldn't cause I did not want to jeopardize the hormone prescription.

It's ridiculous, this all has been years ago, but these long forgotten situations keep on popping up in my mind, like a trauma that I still have not digested. When these memories pop up, I feel kind of ... forced, ridiculized or humiliated. I think I haven't stomached it all yet. I don't know how to put this in words. I'm sure my shrink did not do that on purpose, but honestly, the therapy damaged me more than it helped me. Before, I thought being transgendered was kind of normal, and that, yes, it was normal as well that some of these people transitioned.  About 25% of my friends have been transsexuals or transgenders since I was 20 (androgynes, bigenders etc.), without us belonging to any specific subculture or transgender community, we just met "by chance", it was just human variation. And we were a very varied bunch of people.

Then I had to deal with this gatekeeper, a gentle man, but, well... I had never even thought about it that being transgendered might be considered pathological, that you had to go through exams to get hormones, that people judge you for sometimes silly characteristics and behaviors (like going to the men's bathroom before passing) - and that you had to prove and justify yourself for being transgendered, other than with my friends. Plus my friends never asked me such ridiculous questions. They just knew which bathroom I use means nothing about myself. Nothing. This was all so weird to me, dealing with the system. I really couldn't understand it. It was like being beamed into a culture where I was pathologized for being left-handed and had to pass exams for being allowed to write with my left hand. And then being judged as a real or non-real left-handed guy based on the fact which hand I use when I wipe my ass. By right-handed people who had written or read theories about people like me, often prejudiced or dismeaning theories, and where the ass-wiping had become a central criterium to allow left-handed people use their appropriate hand. (This analogy does not work well as left-handed people really usually their left hand for this.)

Can you relate to this?

I think the state here requires 2 years before hormones are approved. They have long forms with complicated and very personal questions like if anyone has ever touched your genitals, etc. And while you're doing this 2 year period of living as the gender you're trying to transition into state law won't allow you to use the appropriate bathroom. You have to have had SRS to legally use the bathroom of the gender you're transitioning into.

[Fencesitter]

I think the state here requires 2 years before hormones are approved. They have long forms with complicated and very personal questions like if anyone has ever touched your genitals, etc. And while you're doing this 2 year period of living as the gender you're trying to transition into state law won't allow you to use the appropriate bathroom. You have to have had SRS to legally use the bathroom of the gender you're transitioning into.

That's awful! 2 years RLE without hormones for many people just doesn't work.

Which state are you talking about?

[dustbunny]

That's awful! 2 years RLE without hormones for many people just doesn't work.

Which state are you talking about?

This is just my experience with my TS friends here in MN as well as looking over court cases related to bathroom use after one of my MTF friends was removed from the women's bathroom.

[ClaireA]

This is just my experience with my TS friends here in MN as well as looking over court cases related to bathroom use after one of my MTF friends was removed from the women's bathroom.

2 years for hormones in MN? I was on hormones a month after meeting with my therapist (due partly to have been taking hormones before), and I have yet to transition. And, I'm in MN. As far as I know, the state doesn't have anything to do with dictating when you can get hormones - it's purely between you and your doctor and your therapist. Not sure on the bathroom issue, though.

[dustbunny]

2 years for hormones in MN? I was on hormones a month after meeting with my therapist (due partly to have been taking hormones before), and I have yet to transition. And, I'm in MN. As far as I know, the state doesn't have anything to do with dictating when you can get hormones - it's purely between you and your doctor and your therapist. Not sure on the bathroom issue, though.

The bathroom issue came up when some of my friends were thrown out of the bathroom they were using as it was not the one assigned to their birth gender. MN law requires you show proof of your "plumbing" change before defending your right to use the bathroom. You can try to look up the lawsuits that have been files. I don't think I have enough posts yet to link it. I have a long PDF about it I found while doing a google search that is quite interesting. In some ways MN is very good for trans issues, in some ways it is very far behind.

As far as the 2 year minimum, this is what I have heard from my local trans friends. I am not on HRT. I'm not certain state law mandates the time either as much as it is that that's the typical amount to show "prudent care". Your case may be unique in that you were on hormones before.

[Double_Rainbow]

Wow!  Reading all these horror stories with therapists is really making me nervous about going to my first appointment.  Now I feel like I'm going to have the jitters about saying the "right" thing to them. 

I still don't understand how these therapists take into consideration gender stereotypes and what you "should" be doing.  Most of these stereotypes are learned through life after birth right?  I don't see how wearing something or participating in certain gender-dominated activities should have any bearing on how you feel in your core of cores.

So what?  Am I indefinitely male because I like watching UFC fights or play metal guitar?  Those are mostly male dominated, but no way am I convinced they make me feel less like a woman.  I like doing a lot of female oriented activities as well!  What say you to that gatekeeper?

Well...in reality if I have to follow my therapist's rules and answer her questions to get what I need to transition properly, then so be it.

[Lisa]

Wow!  Reading all these horror stories with therapists is really making me nervous about going to my first appointment.  Now I feel like I'm going to have the jitters about saying the "right" thing to them. 

Just try to relax and be yourself. Most likely everything will be just fine.
Looking back at some of the stuff I have written it might come off as being worse than it really is. Hard to avoid that, humans do tend to exaggerate a bit when ranting about stuff.

[Lisa]

Well I don't know your case personally. I know that a bad passing due to unfair physical aspects may be very bothersome, so maybe it might have made some sense that he told you this. But I know a lot of trans women who get read as female without a problem - and even some transvestite guys. Moreover, saying "I know X trans people and I can read them all" does not mean anything, cause those he cannot read - he does not know that they are trans.

Perhaps he just wanted to see how I responded, but I don't know and I don't really care either.

Anyway, when I was out doing my christmas shopping, wearing a nice top and jeans, not quite sure if I passed or not, still using the mens room. The guys did the walk in turn around, walk back out to check the sign and then come back in again walking very slowly past me while turning the head to stare at me the entire time.
Was awkward, but did feel nice knowing that I can look good enough for that to happen.