Still have passing problems. Not sure what to do

[Nero]

Hi all,

I'm still having passing problems. One person will refer to me as male, and the next female. I'm really not sure what it is. I just started passing period a few months ago after being consistently read as female. I'm not sure if the T just needs more time to work in my case or what. I would say that this last time, it was my voice faltering (unlike a seeming majority of trans people, I actually developed a false voice separate from my regular female pre-T voice as a subconscious way of trying to be more female). My actual voice has changed, but this false voice which was never even my real voice peeks through at times.

I also developed ways of speech in effort to be more female which may still come through.
I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'd rather not grow out my facial hair just to pass and I don't know what the problem is. I don't know if it is the voice or speech or my appearance.

I don't know. I spent my life trying to be female; I don't want to have to do the same thing as a male.

[Sarah Louise]

The only important part is you Nero, you are a guy.  Don't let others get to you, there will always be those who want to hurt you.  We all had to learn to play a part, we lived as something we weren't and part of that will never go away.

Its not a matter of working at being a guy, its just a matter of living and knowing who you are.  Others will see the real you in time.  And those who don't, you just ignore.

[K8]

I'll agree with Sarah Louise.  Just relax into the real you (easier said than done).

- Kate

[Janet_Girl]

Yo Dude.  Relax.  Just continue being the guy you are and ignore others comments.

If I get read I could care less.  If they don't like it then bugger off.  If they make a mistake gendering me, I will correct them if it is a place I frequent.  If not, I just leave it there.

[ilanthefirst]

I'm not sure if the T just needs more time to work in my case or what. I would say that this last time, it was my voice faltering (unlike a seeming majority of trans people, I actually developed a false voice separate from my regular female pre-T voice as a subconscious way of trying to be more female). My actual voice has changed, but this false voice which was never even my real voice peeks through at times.

I don't pass consistently at all (am pre-T), so I don't have any real advice.  I just wanted to say this is the first time I've heard of anyone else with a false female voice that comes through sometimes.  When I'm talking normally, my voice is down in "rumbly" territory, but whenever I try to be polite, I slip into this higher range that sounds really feminine.  Because it only happens when I'm trying to be extra polite, I think your explanation for where it comes from probably applies to me, too.  I've been trying to train myself out of it ever since I figured out the pattern over the summer, so I'm sure it's possible to get over eventually.  Good luck!

[caleb727]

how long have you been on t?

it's been about 5 months now for me and i'd say the biggest contributor for me is confidence... when i feel completely at ease with myself and confident as male, i definitely notice that i pass more. especially since it's really obvious when i'm insecure cuz i talk a bit higher, which makes passing harder in general...

there are tons of videos on youtube about passing... here's one:

[kyril]

Yeah, I have a fake "extra high" voice too. Mine tends to come out when I'm talking to women. And children, sometimes.

[Lee]

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who has the "ultra-girly" voice!  I tend to use it when at work, speaking to teachers, etc.  If anyone figures out how to break this habit, I'd love to know.

[Nicky]

Hey buddy,

That must be so frustrating.

I used to wear glasses, but then had laser eye surgery. For the next couple years I would still wake up and reach for my glasses, or go to pull them off to give them a clean on my shirt thinking I was looking through a dirty lense, or hold my hand above my eyes if it starts to rain so it won't get on the 'glasses'. Some habits take a long time to work themselves out. It will happen with time I think, and a lot of it will come without effort.

Hugs

[Cindy]

Hi Bro,

I know plenty of  G guys with high pitched voices that come through at random moments. It embarrasses the hell out of them too. I think it's a guy thing.
Just a suggestion but try and build on the confidence. As others have said if you really don't care what others think because you know you are the man. Others will respond to it. I think Guys in particular look for chinks in the armour of other guys. The alpha male stuff.

Cindy

[noeleena]

Hi, Nero.

Ill be flipant here .

Lets just change bodys   see no probs .....Oh ,   for got im just a woman .  that wont work then will it,

you see when we just accept who we are as a person we can be accepted by others . if i did not tell you what i am who i am other than my pic as you see what would you say i am ,.... Do tell me .....

I know what i am . prob is you do know so of cause youll say im a woman . if you saw me down the road youd say . & with s  a very male looking male oh i have a skirt on & blouse a little if any make up & head scarve & female shoes .

So who the hell am i trying to fool....am i a woman based on looks .. no bloody way & never will ever. no matter what..

Yet im still a woman  forget my androgynous from birth detail . so our words i dont PASS as a woman .

Im just accepted as one because i am one .

So for me i told the world as you know..what i am who i am .

so what changed for me i got up in front of 1000 s of people & TOLD  them i am a woman...apart from knowing i am . you see we look to much at i cant pass i dont look right  or ..........ya ya on we go...

stop........ look at your self & accept your self just for who you are ..over come that & others will .

Okay may be not to day or next week or 5 years try 8 after that i had been given acceptance & not before

You see we grow in to our selfs thats what i had to do so,    you can as well.. 

Do people look at me oh yes & they wonder , whats this ....now when they talk with me they find out who i am,      not what i am ,    most accept after that, im a woman & thats aLL IT TAKES ,

As you read this think about,   its not what others say that determins who we are  im 63  been through the hell of it all . its now,    im a part of our community work with in it & accepted ,that took time,

Okay take what you can from what iv said ,   its about loveing your self ,  accepting your self,   for who you are after that many of your inner details, problems  will not be there.

...noeleena...

[sneakersjay]

You wouldn't be the first guy to grow your facial hair so you pass more.  I think a lot of us do exactly that, because really, what woman would proudly sport facial hair?!  And I do wonder how well I'd pass without it.  I did pass before growing it out, but probably did have more episodes of misgendering that I'm conveniently forgetting now.  I hated that in-between phase a LOT.

If you're not into facial hair, then I'd go with confidence and correct people.  There are lots of feminine-appearing men out there who get misgendered on occasion.  Both of my kids get misgendered also.  My daughter is tall and thin with a small chest and looks fairly androgynous, and gets male pronouns on occasion; my son likes to sport long hair and people call him she just because of that.  And he's like duh, I'm a boy!  LOL


Jay

[Sean]

I'm not a big fan of telling people, "Oh, you must adopt this stereotypical male behavior, because then you will pass..." in general, but it sounds like you're frustrated and passing is important to you. So I get that the fact that some people just don't care about passing (or stop caring about it) isn't that helpful here.

Have you started to categorize when you pass and when you don't? We don't always get great feedback about how people are reading us, so when we do get info, I try to make a note of it.  I've noticed that I can sort of tell when I'm passing and when I'm not, and based across experiences, I can start to see patterns.

What may seem obvious to some, it surprised me is that my passing not only has to do with who is reading me (e.g., old Russian and Italian tailors? forget passing!), it is often really just about the company I keep.

When I am alone, I pass well. When I am with my significant other, depending on the circumstance, I don't pass as well. His presence jeopardizes the mission, so to speak, because we have an obvious subtle connection to one another in many contexts and even though we're the same age, he looks a lot older than me now. Ergo: people are not just trying to read my gender, they are trying to contextualize my relationship and they make determinations on gender based on the picture we present. Sometimes it depends on how common it is for that person to see gay couples where they are. And it depends if we're in a place where two guys normally would go or hang together or not.

If the two of us grab food with another (male) friend, we're read as three guys  pretty much all the time. If the two of us get food with a straight couple, then my pass rate goes down again.

I've heard from a bunch of FTMs who get frustrated when they are called "ladies" when they are with their friends and/or sisters/moms. I wince when I hear that word too. But from the perspective of the other person, they are judging how often they see 1 teenage-looking guy with several female friends interacting a certain way or stuck being there with mom/sisters.

It's not that you do or don't pass as an individual. It's that the company you keep tells a story that other people will quickly and instinctually interpret, and if you are the semi-androgynous one (or even sometimes the not in your face masculine one), sometimes the 'story' fits better to them if you are female and not male, especially if your passing age is significantly different from your actual age.

I don't think anyone should ditch friends or family - and certainly not significant others! - to pass better. I just think that sometimes if you are passing well and then all of a sudden, it seems like you aren't, maybe the question you want to ask is not just what has changed about YOU, but rather what has changed in the company you keep that maybe people are reading you different as part of that context.

[Arch]

Well, I responded on your other thread because I hadn't seen this one.

If some of your mannerisms truly bother you and you want to change them, go ahead. But it does take time. And you might have some that you're not even aware of. Sean's idea is pretty cool.

You could be in a vicious circle. If you do get significant amounts of facial hair (I don't, worse luck, not yet), then do grow it out--temporarily--and relax and see how you feel a month or two later.

You are anxious about being read right. Maybe having one obvious male marker will put you in a different zone and give you a certain amount of confidence. Make you feel more unequivocally guy. If you do feel a shift in attitude, see if that sticks around when you shave off the face fur.

If not, Plan B.

[JohnR]

Grown the facial hair, allow people to read you as male, then go back to being clean shaven if you prefer. Those people will then know you as male so they won't doubt you just because you have a naked face.

A lot of passing problems are down to fem mannerisms. One thing I have noticed in the Do I Pass thread here is that a lot of guys do the whole female head on one side pose. Guys really do not do that. Hand gestures make a huge difference too. It's worth filming yourself and then looking at what you're doing. Just try to correct one thing at a time. Voice cadence, the way you stand, passivity and so on all contribute to a female presentation.

[lilacwoman]

I hate visiting my mother because she is deaf in one ear so has the televsion on full blast so that I have to almost shout to get her attention so that on way home after each visit I can feel my throat is tight and my voice has dropped into rough male from its usual middle range.
What happens with FtMs voices if you all sing as loud as you can to favourite tunes or practice talking very loud and hard while alone in car or bath?
Would it roughen the edges and allow the T to work?

[kyril]

No, straining/injuring an FTM voice doesn't make it sound more male; it just gets weak and hoarse, not usually much (if any) lower. Over time it can damage our high range but won't increase our low range. We just don't have the vocal fold thickness needed for lower resonance frequencies (and even when a cis guy has a high primary frequency in his speaking voice, it's the lower resonances that make him sound "male"). And the only thing that can change that - if we're lucky and our genetics permit - is time on T. Some of us will never have an unmistakably male voice; Buck Angel, for instance, will always have to rely on his looks for passing.

[pebbles]

Nero your situation sounds like mine, I'm sorry but this your not going to like my answer.

What means more to you begin taken as a man or having to take care of a beard?
What means more to you having to man down your voice or begin read as a woman?

- My voice is irriversibly altered into a male type... My choice do I use my trained Female voice or do I not? It's not easy to not slip infront of someone and I have to drink like a liter of water a day to hold it Far from ideal... But No surgery will EVER repair my problem and I will always feel my male voice in my throat until the day I die. But how do I want pepole to regard me based on my voice? If I didn't use my female voice and used my male one my passablity would be close to 0%

- My breasts are tiny little more than puffy nipples 10 months in and probably won't grow anymore, I have to wear a padded bra to give them any shape at all through my clothes, Do I or Don't I go through that trouble?

- My hairstyle isn't a matter of personal flambouyance, The fringe conceals my masculine forehead, do I want to put up with the stupid thing sticking out at stupid angles or trying to curl for some obscure reason. Or Do I put up with it and get a 70% passablity rate instead of 30%

- Foundation My facial hair is once again going through a massive regeneration spurt like tons of it regrowing in a week if I go out of the house without foundation on I Will invariably be read as male and house mates will make comments too Shaving is painful electrolysis is worse and takes time do I do it and then cover my face with foundation JUST to go upstairs and make breakfast first thing in the morning? My choice but I won't pass and will look like a hairy effeminate man if I don't.

Sorry nero but your body isn't like that of a normal man, Like mine isn't that of a normal woman They've spend a decade or more begin somthing else we can't just leave it to it's own devices and hope it will work on it's own unless we devote effort and willpower it will just drag itself back to it's status quo if we don't resist that pull with our own actions we probably won't ever be taken as we see and feel in ourselves Hormones DONT do all the work. But We can only hope that the longer were exposed to our respective hormones it will require less effort in time.