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So, on the topic of... getting ALL the parts

Started by pixiegirl, November 25, 2010, 11:14:53 PM

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pixiegirl

Ok, so there is another topic running about transplanting ovaries and a uterus into transwomen, and it and some of the replies to it got me thinking around the topic... a good bit actually. There are lots of ways to go with this but one in particular seems like it could be really really important one day and I was just wondering about other peoples thoughts and opinions on it.

The comment that got me started was along the lines of 'if this was possible, why would you? most girls wouldnt choose periods and pms'.... but they don't choose, they do have them though. So it got me thinking... if, in the far future there was a canal-cervix-uterus-ovaries combo platter available as part of GRS/GCS/whatev (GPS? Is that an option now? Can we get a tracker put in to compensate for losing the male sense of direction?  :P )... would a comment like that/ feeling like that raise a big red flag with psychologists or whoever about suitability for transitioning?*

I'm not really asking everyone 'would you want..?' I'm looking for thoughts/opinions about how this being available might change the landscape of transition, being trans, definitions within the T spectrum of the rainbow, and expectations of future gatekeepers.

For example, while it really doesn't seem like it, there is a lot of latitude in some ways when it comes to whats allowed in transitioning when it comes to people going to different lengths and resting there or staying there (eg: from non op all the way to full transition there are people who have found a comfort zone and stay there,whether its just hormones, or ffs, and so on and so on). I think maybe this leniance of it not being an 'all or nothing' situation comes from (among many other things) the lack of the medical ability to provide a "true and full"** transition. If this changed, even with all other things the same as they are now, that might become the rule.***

What effect might a full transition to a pretty rigid timescale becoming the only really tolerated option, (MtF or FtM) and anything outside that considered more fetishistic, have, do you think? In terms of relations in the trans community, what could be accessed  via public healthcare, etc... anything you can think of.

Discuss :p

*- yes, I know this assumes that by the time they've developed the ability to clone these from stem cells and grow them in a tank and do the super advanced surgery to put them in they're still at the stage of guesswork and psychwork to diagnose GID instead of, say, some simple brainscans and a definitive answer. Work with me here.
**-just using this as a term to make my point. Please don't shoot.
***- yes, I know this implies that society in general is sticking with the idea of an absolute gender binary, though allowing motion from pole to pole but not being ok with being able to hang in the middle-- are you really going to hold me assuming the majority of people alive now are going to still be acting like poop flinging cave-monkeys about this when they're older and crotchitier against me?
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pixiegirl

OOpS... I meant to say at the start that if this wasn't the right forum for the post then could someone move it somewhere better? I placed it here 'cos the thread that it spun off of is here but I don't know if it's the best place. I did have this at the top originally but the first try got deleted by accident while sending and I forgot it in the rewrite :(
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spacial

pixiegirl.

I would be happy to think about your points. But I'm not exactly sure what you are asking, to be honest.

I have mood swings. Had them all my life. They are an absolute pain. But they are a pain because they have no purpose.

If I was born with a female body, I would probably suffer the various problems associated with that, periods, mood swings and so on. But I would know they had a purpose. I may not like the purpose, but it would exist.

Is that your point?
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SnailPace

Hmm... an interesting topic.

I've heard of some FtMs that do not want a penis at all, yet still identify as FtM.  I think a lot of people would classify that as 'androgyne' instead.  So if, in the future, "true and full" transitions were available, would people assume you were more of an androgyne than a "real woman" if you didn't want the ovaries/womb etc.? I would assume that SOME people would feel that way, yes, but I find it hard to believe that the majority would.  There are lots of biological women who have those parts of themselves removed or altered for health reasons/birth control.

I question I raise: Would there be any point to this other than childbirth? What would, say, a lesbian trans woman who does not intend to get pregnant benefit from this surgery?  I suppose, depending on the level if dysphoria, it could still relieve a lot of stress and give you a sense of 'rightness'.

I am FtM and if there were a surgical way to get the penis/testes/prostate I would want it.  But why? The first thing that comes to mind is sexual reasons, but even aside from that I think I would want it still.  There are some feeling that are hard to describe (that aforementioned feeling of wholeness) but none-the-less wonderful.
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Sandy

Were I to get the "full monty" it would be, for me, to fulfill my need to be fertile and procreate.  And if that also carried the gift of menses with it, then so be it.  Also it would let my body regulate itself as far as hormones are concerned and relieve me of having to take injections.

I would care very little of what society thought about it, if I thought about it at all.  Though I think the entirety of the womyn-born-womyn crowd would have their collective heads explode at the thought.

Part of my maturation as a person, both before and after transition, was getting over the jealousy of pregnant women.  The whole idea of growing a life within me seems so natural and attractive.  Seeding life, as I did when my body produced sperm, was always second best for me.  I still have a very strong nesting instinct as a result.  I've had to console myself with the understanding that many women are infertile and never bear children.  I am one of those women.  This whole idea has been part of the discussions I've had while I was in transition therapy.  I have raised children, and now I am a grandmother, and that is quite fulfilling in itself.

We can speculate all day about the future technology that might bring this to fruition and say that if these types of cloning and transplant techniques were available, they might have a way of stopping menstruation as well.  Indeed there is a line of birth control products on the market that promise shorter, lighter and delayed periods already.  So it is not inconceivable, but once you start doing that then you open yourself up to the whole "what if" scenarios and I think we drift off track.

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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pixiegirl

Yaay, replies already :) I can try and clear up what I'm trying to get at, spacial... I can get rambling easily when my mind starts to spin, my fault. Maybe the best way would be to invent some examples. I'm not really polling whether anyone would/wouldn't go 'full monty' (thanks sandy :) ) or their reasons for that decision - but that doesn't mean don't share if you want to. I'm more wondering what might happen if that was the only option on the table.

Like, when I said originally there is latitude in transition at the moment I meant that in lots of ways people transitioning can write up their own timetable to their own comfort zone, and go as far into the process as they want to, choosing which milestones to reach in what order... (and thats before money, family and a thousand other factors get involved) I'm just talking about personal choice.

My question is about what might happen if this got taken away once medical science has gotten to a certain point. It's like.. well it feels sometimes that the medical community on a good day see transition for trans people like almost palliative care... they're like 'ok, so you're male/female mentally and female/male physically. We can't fully fix that so out of what we can do, find where you're comfortable and we'll go from there'. I think, that it's very likely, that if complete physical transition becomes possible that attitude would change to 'ok, we can sort this. If you fulfill our criteria for procedure XX/XY, here's whats going to happen'.

If it did go down like that, there would probably be really strict rules rather than guidelines and only one official path to transition with little to no deviation. Want to have FFS before GCS? Nope, not an option anymore, save up for the cosmetic stuff after the medically necessary one if you want to ever have it and to stay on HRT.
Have really small breasts that are virtually pecs after the right exercises so you don't see the point of an extra surgery? Tough, you need to have the tissue removed as a step toward PT implantation and if you want to be cleared to stay on T.
Have kids you want to grow up a bit more before doing this but would like to start some HRT in the meantime? Sorry, it's all or nothing now.

I realise I'm painting a worst case scenario with that, but I don't think it's too far-fetched. For example, as transitioning hurdles go, some places like the CAMH still require a year of RLT before clearing you for HRT right now, and things used to be far far worse....and rules for transplant patients are brutally strict, like,'these are the rules, if you don't follow them exactly you won't get an organ and you die, your fault' strict. That's not likely to change much, even if organs become easily obtainable - it's just as much about managing the other resources involved and surgical reputation as it is an organ shortage.

I know that there are an awful lot of people that this wouldn't matter to in terms of their own transition... I'm wondering about the effect on those that it would affect. Would someone who identifies as andro be cut off from accessing hormones entirely by new rules? Would an MtF who would be more comfortable going through a gradual transition through maybe ffs then implants then finally eventually GCS be forced into doing it completly the reverse of that to a timescale they have no input in if they wanted to transition at all, wouldn't that make transition unnecessarily hellish?




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pixiegirl

@ Sandy: That point about allowing self regulation of hormones is one of the reasons I see for this starting to maybe happen quicker than we think. Not necessarily for totally altruistic reasons, I might add. For example if it's cheaper paying for surgery for a set of ovaries/testes that might not be able to reproduce but can regulate/produce hormones... well it's probably better medically than totally artificial HRT, and if it turns out to be cheaper than 30 years of HRT then I could see it getting pushed for that reason too.

@SnailPace: Yeah that feeling of righness and eliminating dysphoria is one good reason. Apart from reproducing, hormone generation and balancing without needles all the time is also a good reason,medically.
The essence of my big question though is really not about whether individuals see a point to it.. It's whether people transitioning if this is available will have a choice as to whether or not to have it. Would all the options that exist now be annihilated by a 'we can fix you so we're going to' medical ethos,and where does that leave androgynous people, or anyone who would still be content with a less than total transition, and so on....
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Sandy

Quote from: pixiegirl on November 26, 2010, 02:41:46 PM
@ Sandy: That point about allowing self regulation of hormones is one of the reasons I see for this starting to maybe happen quicker than we think. Not necessarily for totally altruistic reasons, I might add. For example if it's cheaper paying for surgery for a set of ovaries/testes that might not be able to reproduce but can regulate/produce hormones... well it's probably better medically than totally artificial HRT, and if it turns out to be cheaper than 30 years of HRT then I could see it getting pushed for that reason too.
...
The essence of my big question though is really not about whether individuals see a point to it.. It's whether people transitioning if this is available will have a choice as to whether or not to have it. Would all the options that exist now be annihilated by a 'we can fix you so we're going to' medical ethos,and where does that leave androgynous people, or anyone who would still be content with a less than total transition, and so on....

Your supposition implies a couple of things that seem a little extreme given the current climate in health care.

First, Big Pharma is really in the business to keep selling meds and are happy to see people treated not cured.  For example, I used to have severe acid reflux.  I had absolutely no problem getting a script for prescription strength Previcid.  Though when I wanted the minor arthroscopic surgery to correct the underlying issue of a torn diaphragm which allowed my esophagus to herniate, I had to go through literally YEARS of referrals and second opinions.  Once I had the surgery, I no longer needed those types of meds and thus Pharma lost one more drug user.

This would be a similar situation.  If trans people could successfully have implanted non-reproducing gonads that produced the requisite hormones for their body, I think you would find that that would be less well accepted by the pharmacological community than ongoing HRT.  Also the medical community is really loathe, by ethics, from doing any kind of major surgery simply because it puts the patient at a higher risk than ongoing drug therapy.  And this would certainly be considered major surgery.

Also medical ethos has to do more with quality of life rather than "we will fix you no matter what".  If a patient cannot have surgery because of  over riding medical issues, or cannot afford it, or has ethical/religious issues, then their doctor will try to work out some other arrangement.  Even in cases of life threatening conditions that can be cured by surgery, if the patient is competent and makes an informed decision not to have surgery, the medical community will not throw them down on a gurney and wheel them into surgery against their wishes.

Androgynous people face that dilemma now.  There really isn't a clear medical procedure to follow to nullify a persons gender other than gonadectomy.  But then that brings in a whole host of other health related issues that are raised when sex steroids are eliminated.  Osteoporosis, muscle mass loss, loss of libido among others come to mind.  The human body does not function well without gonads.  I am speaking physiologically not psychologically here. 

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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CaitJ

By the time this kind of medical tech is available, trans kids will probably be identifiable in utero and 'fixed' before birth.
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