Copping out (i.e. Coming out of another closet)

[beatrix]

I know this (Susan's) probably isn't the best forum to post on, but I feel more at home here than on some other forums that cater to more specifically atheist viewpoints.

I'm an atheist and have been for, well, over a decade.  Which may not seem long, but I'm only 28, so . . . but anyway, it shouldn't happen like this.

I've taken up going to lunch weekly with some co-workers.  I usually have a lot of fun and it's good to network. 

However, at least one of them is really really religious (missions to China, etc.); which is fine.  Whatever.  Not my bag, baby.   Freedom of religion and ir-religion. 

We all got to in the missionary's car for an off-the-clock and off-site lunch and he had some Christian "rock" playing.  Someone else in the group, not the missionary person, said, "Well, we're all Christians in this car, right."

I zoned out.  Instantly.  Before I knew what I was even doing I was gone.  Not even there.  You could have poked me and I would have maybe, just maybe, grunted.  Pure fear and cowardice.  You figure: I drive a car with a Darwin fish on it . . . but I still freeze.

Fine, you know, we're at the restaurant, I'm eating some awesome enchiladas, and, as conversations tend to be circular and self-referential, that exact same line came around again.  I zone out AGAIN; I stared for about 2 minutes at some blinking Jalapino (sp) pepper Christmas lights.  One of them was burnt out.

I feel like I need to tell them that I am not a Christian. 

My personal view is that religion is actually harmful to humanity, but I intend to neither persuade them to that point of view or dissuade them from their own as long as they show the same respect to me.  If they want an opinion or argument, they'll get it, but I'm surely not going to bring that subject up on my own accord. 

Politics and religion are, 9/10 times, not good to talk about at work (or family), even if you agree with the person.  I've lost a lot of respect for people because of their stupid and ignorant comments during conversations.  Those conversations are what the Internet is for.    And friends, if you have them.

The thing is that this is a really small company, and I know if I tell them, it'll get out.  I've just started working there.  This area is still red state territory even if I'm in a blue state.  While I know they cannot legally fire me for being an atheist, they still may fire me for something pointedly not-relevant.  Do I think that will happen?  No, do I fear it will?  You bet I do.

Atheist and transgendered: two different closets, similar consequences. 

Does anyone else just go away when something like that is brought up?  It happens to me when someone brings up transgender or sexual orientations, too, but less severely.  How am I going to actually come out to the world as genderqueer/androgynous when I cannot even talk about these fundamental parts of my existence?  I'm more upset with myself than with my lunch-mates.

[Hazumu]

Erm -- well -- you could learn to PASS as a Christian, I guess...

...not very funny, is it?

I'd agree with your assessment of the danger to your job.  I'll leave it to others here to offer you advice on how to 'fit in'.  You may want to consider documenting events that happen to you at that company which could be motivated by their religious intolerance.  If you are sacked, a good attorney could use that material to sue them for discrimination.

That's about all the advice I can offer you.


Here's hoping it turns out to be nothing at all...

Karen

[Chaunte]

Bea,

Another thought would be to simply say that you don't care for contemporary Christian music.  Personally, I find most contemporary Christian too sweet for me - almost to the point of putting me into sugar shock!  And this is speaking as a Christian.

There will be times when you will have to tollerate it, just as there are times when someone will have to tollerate what you want to listen to.

But there is nothing wrong - or "outing" - with asking to listen to something different.  Just say you don't care for it.

Chaunte

[cindianna_jones]

Oh... this is easy.  Put up with their banter and talk.  If the conversation comes to you, tell them that you don't talk politics or religion at work.  Since you need to work with them professionally, you want to take no chances that either of these will stand in the way of getting work done.  Once your preferences are known, they may surprise you and quit talking of religion around you. It's been known to happen before.

The music?  If it is offensive to you, just ask them to turn it down or off.  If asked why, just say you don't enjoy that sort of music.  You can tell them which kind of music that you do like. Religion does not have to be discussed.

Okay... next question...

Chin up

Cindi

[Kate]

Been there, done that.

I've worked in a small office of around twenty people for sixteen years now. Everyone there is very, very christian, where much of the small talk revolves around attending church and church activities. Everyone sends their kids to parochial schools. Company gatherings and events generally start with prayers thanking Jesus and whatnot. The company itself keeps religion seperate - it's not like there are crosses around the building or anything - but the people do bond together with their shared religious views.

Then there's ME.

After a decade or so, I started to feel like a fraud. By never correcting them, by always going along with the flow, I was passively telling them Me Too. I felt as if I was deceiving them, being dishonest, both to them AND me.

So... I just start correcting people now and then. Nothing confrontational, no formal "coming out," just if the situation arose where it was obvious I was being considered a christian, I'd just smile and say, "hey, you KNOW I'm not christian, right?" I'd just try to mention it casually, as if I'd assumed they knew all along anyway.

And you know what? No one reacted poorly. In fact, they usually showed a genuine interest in learning what I DO believe, attempting to avoid future misunderstandings.

The only downside to it is people kinda tiptoe around me during holidays, stumbling over whether to wish me "Merry Christmas!" and that sorta thing. And I cringe a bit when company outings start with, "We thank thee Jesus...," wondering if everyone is uncomfortable having a heathen in their house.

But overall, I'm glad I said something, and proud of myself for being true to my beliefs.

BUT... I got away with it. Had I been fired, I'd probably be singing a different tune Errr... hymm

[Victoria L.]

While I don't work... I kind of live in a Christian community and it really bothers me seeing as I'm an atheist. My friends and parents would all kill me if they found out... well most of them would anyways. That's a really comfortable feeling.

[Joseph]

Hi Beatrix/Dan,

  Thanks for your post.  It IS interesting how this is sort of analogous to being transgender.  First, know that I am a Christian, so this may sort of be like a FTM giving thoughts to a MTF.  However, some things should still be the same even though we're on different sides of the spectrum.

Even though statistics show the majority of people in the U.S. claim to be Christians, in certain situations I have found myself feeling that people would think less of me / lose respect / dislike me / etc if/when they found out I am a Christian.  My work place is also not a place where religion is usually discussed.  I still don't know whether some of my coworkers are religious or not.  But the bottom line is, you can't simply cease being who you are, and for most people, continuing to be dishonest to yourself or others about who you are is quite an unhappy and unhealthy situation.  However, as with almost everything, there are compromises to be made.  Usually I find there is a way to be myself and/or become more comfortable with a situation that I dislike, without having to overtly blurt out my "secret." (This goes for both being a Christian and being TG.)  If there is no way to do that, then you have to ask yourself which you value more - in this case, will it be your perceived freedom to act according to your beliefs, or your status at your job?  That is something only you can answer.

For what it's worth, in general I dislike making people uncomfortable by overtly sharing my Christian beliefs with them, unless they asked for it in some fashion - especially if I'm not a close friend.  I don't even pray before a meal if I think it will make someone at the table uncomfortable.  Of course, that doesn't stop me from putting my faith into action - I think it is usually possible to show people I care, try to be encouraging in ways they will appreciate, answer their questions about Christianity to the best of my ability - without being offensive or annoyingly evangelical.  Perhaps some Christians don't feel the same way, but at least some do.  Of course, Red/blue, christian/atheist, we differ fundamentally in some ways, and some of our beliefs may just be inherently disagreeable to each other.  But it doesn't usually mean we have to be hostile about it; at (hopefully rare) times it may become necessary to offend someone, but usually I think offending someone is counterproductive.

All the best,
Joseph

[VeryGnawty]

at (hopefully rare) times it may become necessary to offend someone, but usually I think offending someone is counterproductive.

There is a difference between offending someone, and someone taking offense.  Sometimes, someone will inevitably take offense.

However, it is never necessary to offend someone.

[Hazumu]

I am spiritual, but I don't hold affiliation to any particular religion.  I can find the good and the bad in any religion, and prefer a smörgåsbord approach -- a little here, a little there, I don't like this so I won't take it again...

I respect another persons' religion.  I'll show interest, because I stand to learn something (even if it's not necessarily what the person expects or intends me to learn.)  If someone is not pushy/preachy/judgmental about their religion -- doesn't try to force it on me either overtly or otherwise and will refrain when it's plain I'm not interested in that topic now -- I'm much more likely to listen.

However, I do not like dealing with proselytizers, converters, or those who are auditioning for their own personal Satan.  When I say, "Thank you -- No."  I mean No.  End of discussion, because to me this is no longer a discussion between two equals.

So, I would also feel uncomfortable if a group of people all said, "Hey!  We're all Christians here!"  It's like in the locker room where its safe to indulge in misogynistic bigotry because there's no ******s around to get all huffy about about a(n abusive) JOKE!, f'r crissake... (Other examples are rooms-full of racists, holocaust deniers, etc.)

But, yes, I see the difference between my taking offense and someone deliberately offending me.

Karen

[Steph]

I am not a spiritual person by any stretch of the imagination.  Fitting in can be a problem especially into a small group.  Small group dynamics are tough to work through even more so for a new comer.  It really doesn't matter what the topic may be the problem of conforming to the group and their schtick is tough.

I when I first started in my present position the group was extremely macho and obscene language was the norm, f__k this f__k, that, a__hole this and a__hole that.  Not what I was used to and not what I liked.  It would have been easy to do like wise but I've never compromised my beliefs, morals whatever, and I wasn't going to start now.   I simply joined in but never swore.  Politics and municipal issues can be a lightning rod, are often discussed and of course the boss has her view and generally speaking everyone else goes along with it, except me.  I have no problem in disagreeing with her and the others, and I simply state my opinion and why.  Again it's a question of never compromising my values and beliefs.

Of course the biggest issue is this one where religion comes up.  Again I've never compromised my beliefs, as far as the music issue is concerned the same applies.  If the music is too loud then I would ask to have turned down a little.  If it wasn't then I would simply put up with it, it's no big deal.  As far as someone saying "We're all christian, right!" that's easy.  Simply state with a big smile "Hey not everyone".  The other thing to do is to actively take part in their discussions, and ask them why they feel the way they feel as this will show them that you respect their views and opinions.  Never be afraid to express your views and opinions, but do so in a tactful, respectful, amiable way.  Don't ever let it become adversarial, if it looks like it's going that way then simply state "OK, lets agree to disagree" and leave it at that.  It won't happen over night but in time they will start to respect you and your views and they will become aware of where you stand.

Never live a lie, have the courage of your convictions, respect others, their views and opinions and they will do likewise - eventually.

Steph

[cindianna_jones]

In my last position, I managed an engineering development team with members from diverse walks of life.  We had members from five major faiths.  While I never allowed religious discussion during work hours, I encouraged it during our lunch breaks.  Everyone was very civil and we were able to learn a great deal from each other.  The educational benefits of learning each other'fs culture were an immense benefit to me and the rest of the group. 

I learned a great deal about Jewish, Islam, Budism, and the Hindi religions.  I definitely feel that we should be teaching a course in high school on world religions.  If we were to understand the faith of other peoples, I'm sure our "fear" of them would be greatly diminished.  If every person had to learn something of other peoples, we'd have a lot less hate in the world.

Cindi

[Brianna]

Here is my own snarky opinion on this matter.

I don't take two seconds of crap from Christians. I think their views are unreasonable, and I furthermore think Christianity is the most hateful and murderous religion alive.

I refuse to have their hocus-pocus thrust upon me. It's so annoying to me how these people assume everyone believes their voodoo. When they inevitably DO thrust it upon me, I make it abundantly clear that I don't subscribe to their beliefs.

Our Constitution protects us from Christian tyrany, and I make no qualms ever about making it clear that I will have no part in a public spectacle of private belief.

Brianna

[Suzy]

I don't take two seconds of crap from Christians...
Our Constitution protects us from Christian tyrany...
Brianna

I am glad that the constitution protects the rights of everyone to practice his or her own faith at any time, private or public.  This is called "free exercise."  Look it up.  I am also glad our constitution protects all from religious bigotry such as that espoused above.
Kristi

[Brianna]

The Constitution ABSOLUTELY does not "protect the rights of everyone to practice his or her own faith at any time, private or public."

It says "Government may make no law requiring the establishment of religion." This means freedom of religion, but also freedom FROM religion.

If there is another group in America trying to MAKE THE GOVERNMENT ESTABLISH RELIGION other than Christianity, I am unaware of it.

Bri

[Kendall]

Nice observations about religion vs non religion.

[Suzy]

It says "Government may make no law requiring the establishment of religion." This means freedom of religion, but also freedom FROM religion.   If there is another group in America trying to MAKE THE GOVERNMENT ESTABLISH RELIGION other than Christianity, I am unaware of it.
Bri

Not quite.  The First Amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."  This word "respecting" could be today rendered as "concerning."  In other words, it's not something congress can consider.  The original intent was to make sure that there was no official state church, like happened in the Church of England.  I'm sure that we both agree this is a good thing, no matter what your beliefs may be.

Please note that your phrase, "freedom from religion," is nowhere in the constitution.  It is, however, a popular buzzword with the radical left.  But it is not constitutional.  I fully support your right to be of whatever faith you desire, even if it is of no faith.  But my support of you does not extend to denying others the right to practice their religion.  If you don't like their religion, fine.  Don't participate.  Feel free to have your opinions, even spread them in whatever forum you wish.  But in our country you are not free to spread hatred.  And you are nowhere guaranteed that at no time in your life will you encounter someone else practicing their faith as they personally believe.  Put simply, since I support your right to believe, it is only fair that you support mine.  Else your objections are totally groundless.  For a good, educational, unbiased discussion, I like this page from a secular law school:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/estabinto.htm

You talk about a group in America trying to MAKE THE GOVERNMENT ESTABLISH RELIGION, and identify them as "Christianity."  First, Christianity is not a group but a religion.  There are many groups, or denominations, within Christianity with widely divergent views.  Perhaps there are some whackos on the radical right, who might want to do that, but not most of the mainstream.  On the other hand, there are some things you do seem to enjoy which are part of Christianity, whether you know it or not.  Read about John Calvin and John Knox, the two great Christian reformers in Geneva and Scotland.  From them come the principles of religious freedom, representative democracy, and checks and balances.  In fact, when our new constituition was first displayed, one of the principle objections was that it was a "presbyterian"  form of government, meaning representative democracy.  Read about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the German Lutheran pastor who led the beginnings of the revolt against Adolph Hitler and the Nazi party.  Although he was killed for his work, much of his work survives, incuding the Barmen Declaration, which is one of the most incredible documents written supporting the separation of church and state.  Here is an exerpt:

"We reject the false doctrine that beyond its special commission the State should and could become the sole and total order of human life and so fulfil the vocation of the Church as well.

"We reject the false doctrine that beyond its special commission the Church should and could take on the nature, tasks and dignity which belong to the State and thus become itself an organ of the State."

Guess where these teaching came from?  From scripture.  If you have the courage and honesty, read it yourself:  http://www.ucc.org/faith/barmen.htm

So when you criticize and spew hatred and misinformation about Christianity, realize that the reason you have the freedom to do so is because of the concepts brought to this country by your Christian forefathers and foremothers.  This is not an opinion, but a matter of historical record. 

Just as one contrast:  I have also spent time in Arab countries where Islam is the official religion.  By and large the difference is that people are not free to criticize, not free to think or to challenge the established norm.  Women's roles are tightly defined and the husbands are the god of the family.  How well would you, or any TS survive that?  Be honest and compare the results.  Now to be fair I have Muslim friends from other parts of the world who have shown me a totally different side of Islam. 

I know I've read some of what you have written about your upbringing, and it sounds disgusting.  I truly wish I had a way of making that pain go away.   But I'm all out of miracles tonight.  And every chance you get you dredge up that hurt and spew it out here against people who don't deserve it.  That's historically, intellectually, spiritually, and emotionally unfair.  You are a beautiful girl and you don't wear hatred and intolerance very well. 

Now as to the problem voiced by beatrix/dan, I hope that you will have the courage to speak up.  It is obvious that it was thought that you were part of the crowd.  I am sure it was very unomfortable for you and I feel for you.  However, if they know your position and then continue to make everything a spiritual conversation, then it borders on abuse.  Your outlook sounds very respectful and very fair.  I can't imagine it would be disrespected.  It certainly wouldn't offend me.

Peace all,
Kristi

[beth]

Very well said Kristi.

                       I too feel there has been too much hatred tossed about here lately.





beth

[Brianna]

Kristi,

One of the main things I learned in college is that it's easier to use emotions than logic. I know I'm guilty of that, but I feel like you beth are making this logical error as well.

I agree with everything, absolutely everything, you said in your post. I don't hate Christians, and I don't want them to not have the ability to practice their religion. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square.

I think you are making a beautiful argument, but I think it's irrelevant to what mainstream Christians are doing in America. They are trying to put the 10 commandments in court houses, demonize gays and enforce their alleged "moral" agenda. I want this nonsense completely out of the public square.

I'd love a day where we could all get in a car with a coworker knowing that religion was a private enough thing to to never mention.

Lastly, think it's unfair when I hear Christians talk about how superior their religion is to the Muslim religion. In regards to practiced religion in America, I think that Muslims are a much less dangerous and less violent - ie. not supporting the multitude of American war crimes.

Bri

[beth]

I don't hate Christians, and I don't want them to not have the ability to practice their religion. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square.

How does that differ from this?

"I don't hate blacks, and I don't want them to not have the ability to be themselves. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square."

            It sounds the same to me.  I don't have a dog in the christian fight but some of the comments allowed here would not be allowed if they were describing other groups instead of describing christians. People are intimidated and have left this forum because of this. It isn't right and I for one will call it what it is every time I see it from now on.


beth

[Nikki_W]

I don't hate Christians, and I don't want them to not have the ability to practice their religion. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square.

How does that differ from this?

"I don't hate blacks, and I don't want them to not have the ability to be themselves. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square."

            It sounds the same to me.  I don't have a dog in the christian fight but some of the comments allowed here would not be allowed if they were describing other groups instead of describing christians. People are intimidated and have left this forum because of this. It isn't right and I for one will call it what it is every time I see it from now on.


beth

Sure it's the same... if you believe religious/non-religious preference isn't a choice like skin color, gender identity or sexual orientation. Christianity has had it's positive effects, but it has also done alot of damage to our world, our country and my life. I would strongly appreciate a secular government where laws are based on justice instead of a book full of myths. I would strongly appreciate a country where an atheist can be president. Many christians moan and groan about how their beliefs aren't tolerated, but as long as the christian belief system contains so much intolerance for others I hope I never live to see the day their beliefs are no longer challenged. I was raised on christianity I memorized more of the bible and spent more hours studying it than I care to remember. It's a doctrine of hatred that should have the same place in civilized society as the KKK to continue you're comparison.