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Angst about passing

Started by marissak, December 27, 2010, 03:35:41 AM

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marissak

Does anyone completely get over the passing question for good at any stage of transition? Isn't passing often a question for cisgender males and females too?

First, I would like to point out that Passing is not about Beauty (unlike the category here in the forum where Passing section lies under Beauty). Passing, per my definition, means close to 100% of the people who meet me mistake me to be a genetic female (I am MTF). Beauty has nothing to do with it (and I know I am being politically incorrect with my implied statement that females can be beautiful and not beautiful). This is my perspective. To each their own (perspective).

I never questioned previously, prior to transition, about whether I passed as male or not. Of course, I had a lot of feminine features and a lot of people told me about my feminine features. However, I do not think that they ever questioned my gender. I mean, nobody ever treated me like I was a transman. Or perhaps they did, and I did not notice it.

Does passing only become an issue for most of us because we make it into an issue? I mean, how many people see each other every day and never once question the birth gender of the people they meet.

I am still struggling to find sufficient number of people around me to answer the question - Is the perception of my gender in other people's minds ambiguous enough for any of them to be questioning my gender?

Most people tell me that I pass too well. My sibling tells me that I do not (and I believe this more because it is my perspective too). At the same time, my sibling and I are already biased because we have seen me as male for a couple of decades. I can still see shades of the male me in the mirror. However, the people who have never seen me as male (ie. 99.99% of the people I meet these days) tell me that they cannot imagine that I could look male or that I could have ever looked male in the past. They think I pass because they cannot imagine that I could look anything but female.

Passing is a weird subject. It depends on the observer and each observer is a human being without a common rational perspective about what precisely constitutes a male or a female in society. This makes it so complicated to figure out if I really do pass or don't.

My post is not a cry for help. It is just my way of sharing the angst about passing and inviting anyone else's perspectives.
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nickikim

I think alot of this comes from inside us. For a lot  Of years i worried that my face was to feminine and i worked hard to try and look as tough as i could  so noone challenged my "man hood" before i could let go of that crap i spent alot of time observing     genetic women  ,and some are taller than me have bigger hands worse body proportions and deeper voices than me   I think sometimes i out myself because i feel threatened and butch up  also i ve noticed the average person does notice much  acceptyourself  first  worry about everyone else later  Hope this helps
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Stephanie

Most transsexuals can be divided roughly into three categories regarding passing.  (1) Those who pass very well in their identified gender.  These tend to be people whose height, body-shape, and general appearance and manners make it easy for them to be accepted as male or female even when not wearing gender specific clothes.  These people tend to be relatively rare in pre HRT mtf transsexuals.   FTM's are in my opinion much more passable.   These people are the lucky ones.  Only the voice might give them away or an accidental slip into stereotypical behaviour of their biological sex will make people perhaps question their gender.
(2) Transsexuals in this second group tend to pass well in busy places, like malls, shopping centres.  Places where there is a lot of activity, people coming and going, and nobody is paying too much attention to the people around them.    Where the second type of transsexual is vulnerable is in of course quiet, less busy places, and places where people have the opportunity to take a good long look around themselves at the other people present, and any anything about you that doesn't seem quite right will probably be noticed and you may well hear 'oh my God is that girl a guy!'   Buses, trains, cinema, theatre, supermarket queues are places that this second type should try her hardest to avoid.      Hormones and of course SRS will make a tremendous difference to the passibility of transsexuals who fall into this second category.   However, until you have been on hormones 6 -12 + months, you will have to try to avoid the above situations and try and work on downplaying those things about you that undermine your passibility.  Things like clothing, maybe you are dressing too feminine or not feminine enough?  Do you wear clothes that inadvertently emphasise your height, making people think ' that's a tall girl, (looks closer)notices large hands, and big feet... oh my God it's a >-bleeped-<!' ?  Perhaps you are overdoing feminine gestures and mannerisms and drawing attention to yourself?    It is difficult to get body language etc right, too much will give you away more than too little though.   Hair is said to be an excellent indicator of gender, type into a search engine 'feminine males' and you can see at a certain website just how well long hair makes a genetic male appear feminine.  While having long(ish) hair will go a long way, and may well be enough in a number of mtf transsexuals, others will have to review their clothing and/or mannerisms if they are getting 'read' too often.   Really working on your female voice will help people in this category, because if you are called out and you can speak in an acceptable female voice then hopefully your accuser will say 'Oh my God I am so sorry!'

(3) The third category is the one that I fall into.   I am very tall, I am taller than 95% of the genetic males that I pass each day.   I couldn't pass in a coal cellar at midnight.   Body language, mannerisms, gestures, clothing, the company of sympathetic genetic females, long hair, breasts, a very good female voice(see CandiFLA - on YouTube) all these will be to no avail.    Height trumps all of the afore-mentioned together.   
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CaitJ

Quote from: Stephanie on January 04, 2011, 07:40:04 PM
(3) The third category is the one that I fall into.   I am very tall, I am taller than 95% of the genetic males that I pass each day.   I couldn't pass in a coal cellar at midnight.   Body language, mannerisms, gestures, clothing, the company of sympathetic genetic females, long hair, breasts, a very good female voice(see CandiFLA - on YouTube) all these will be to no avail.    Height trumps all of the afore-mentioned together.   

Firstly, I call BS. height trumps nothing. I'm 6'4" and I have no problems at all.
In fact, the taller the trans woman the MORE likely you are to pass, as people assume another genetic anomaly rather than a Y chromosome. Height is a piss-poor gender marker as women can be extremely tall as well. Otherwise women's basketball and netball players would be pinged for being transsexuals constantly.

Secondly, I actually got a perverse sense of satisfaction from my period of non-passing (I transitioned without hormones), as I knew things could only get better as time went on.

Lastly, just a general gripe: I really hate the terms 'genetic male' and 'genetic female'. I'm female and I have genes. I'm not an android or some freaky methane-based lifeform.
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Stephanie

Vexing, you are clearly far more confident, and out-going than I am.   I admire that.    Are you one of those people who can verbally defend themselves with acid replies and withering put-downs?   
You express yourself well and you can energise a debate with your contributions.   So why don't you start a debate on height in one of the main boards.  You believe that being tall is no excuse for not starting the transition process?  I think that height is major handicap for the mtf. * We could find out what other members think.    There could even be a Wiki started 'Think you are too tall to transition - well think again.'


* Though you have got me questioning my opinion slightly.   :)



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CaitJ

Quote from: Stephanie on January 04, 2011, 08:26:17 PM
Are you one of those people who can verbally defend themselves with acid replies and withering put-downs?
I tend to defend with humour and general joviality. I haven't done the vitriol and withering put-downs for a while now. In fact, I haven't had to defend myself IRL for a long time; those circumstances simply don't arise, whether it's due to luck or how I live my life, I don't know.
   
QuoteYou express yourself well and you can energise a debate with your contributions.   So why don't you start a debate on height in one of the main boards.  You believe that being tall is no excuse for not starting the transition process?
Simply not interested. I know that my height isn't a problem.

QuoteI think that height is major handicap for the mtf.
Well, that thinking can only hinder your transition. You can choose to keep it or discard it, it's all up to you.
You do realise that models (and especially supermodels) are generally required to be 6 foot or taller?
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lilacwoman

SRS will only make a tremendous difference to passing on a nudist beach or other 'everyone-naked' place
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Pippa

I feel I am passing better visually and I have absolutely no problems going shopping or around my neighbourhood.   My big weak spot is finding my voice.  I feel that every time I open my mouth I am going to give myself away so I end up sounding like an asmatic small boy.    I will get there eventually.   I put it down to 30 odd years of hiding the true me.   My trasnsexuality has been such a carefully guarded secret that opening up is really difficult
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MillieB

I think that height is a massive red herring in all of this (although not really qualified as I'm a rather meh, 5'7") I just think that tall women and tall people in general just get more respect.

Lots of things go towards passing and confidence is no small one, I think that I'll struggle at first but once I realise that the sky won't fall in because I'm wearing a blouse then I think that it will get easier.

That's the theory anyway and we are about to find out.  :o
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MillieB

Quote from: Vexing on January 04, 2011, 07:59:04 PM
  I'm not an android or some freaky methane-based lifeform.

You sure?  :P :laugh:
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Kitpup

I always feel a little weird when I'm trying to pass (usually when I go shopping) just because I'm 5". Everyone in my family (including my 11 yr old sister) is taller than me and while I often meet women about my height I have yet to run into a cisguy who is. That, and I have moobs with my current binding method. So I always angst and worry and triple check myself in every mirror I pass.

It'll get better in time, I'm already 100 times more comfortable with my body now, it'll filter through and I know it. Eventually I'll be so used to it I won't even think about it, and I'll stop caring what people are thinking when they look at me. But for now, at least, paranoia and discomfort.
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N.Chaos

Quote from: Vexing on January 04, 2011, 07:59:04 PM
Firstly, I call BS. height trumps nothing. I'm 6'4" and I have no problems at all.
In fact, the taller the trans woman the MORE likely you are to pass, as people assume another genetic anomaly rather than a Y chromosome. Height is a piss-poor gender marker as women can be extremely tall as well. Otherwise women's basketball and netball players would be pinged for being transsexuals constantly.

Seriously. One of my best friend's wife is taller than him, at 6'6.

As long as I've got my chest more or less 'neutralized', my biggest issue when I'm trying to pass is bathrooms. I never know which one to use, last time I used to women's room I got really odd looks (the huge trenchcoat probably didn't help), but I'm paranoid if I go into the guy's room and there's no open stalls...baw. Luckily, most of places I go to frequently have unisex bathrooms.
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CaitJ

Quote from: N.Chaos on January 11, 2011, 12:58:44 PM
but I'm paranoid if I go into the guy's room and there's no open stalls...baw.

If anyone looks at you funny for waiting for a stall, say you need to poop. Real bad. That there's a turtle's head rearing out your backside and you need. to. poop.
Problem solved  :)
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insideontheoutside

I've always looked male, but I'm only 5'3" and I do rock an andro look (longish/shag hair, skinny jeans ... that sort of thing) so when I'm out and about sometimes people do call me "ma'am". Honestly I think they can't see past the height and the hair sometimes. But I'm pretty well over it. If I'm under a lot of general stress or have had a total >-bleeped-< day occasionally it will bother me, but I've also chosen to not do hormones or srs so I know with that decision comes some challenges. One of which is if I ever have to show my ID then I used to always get double takes. I don't think people were looking at the gender so much as my photo. I had short, spiky brown hair (and looked like a total dork I might add) and honestly I look totally different with dyed black longer "rocker" hair lol. I finally went to the DMV last year and got a new picture taken so at least with just a glance I look like my ID now.

Obviously when your trans(gender/sexual) you're awareness is going to be super heightened. So a lot of emphasis is placed on passing. My personal opinion is that when I let go of any worry about what other people judged was in my pants (because really, that's what it comes down to) I was much more comfortable just being myself. When you get wrapped up in passing - you are essentially acting. You're trying to walk a certain way and talk a certain way (or "relearn" how to do those things in the proper gender) and you're giving up yourself in a way for other people. You're putting other people above yourself. That's just my opinion and how I had to think about it to move forward in my own life and gain some confidence.
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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regan

Adding to the tall debate, I'm somewhere just south of 6ft 2 in.  All my therapist has ever said was "lets acknowledge you're going to stand out." He never said I wasn't going to pass, merely that I would stand out.  Tall women do.  I laughed and said I was shorter then quite a few women in the WNBA and that passing had as much to do with presentation, if not more, as it did with looks.

I won't dress like Donna Reed when I need to go grocery shopping and all I ask in return is that you not try to think too much more then "who's that tall chick on aisle 5".

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, people tend to lay blame on a trait they can't change (like their height) and not one they can change (like the fact they dress like Donna Reed).
Our biograhies are our own and we need to accept our own diversity without being ashamed that we're somehow not trans enough.
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drippin

I personally don't think being tall means you can't pass. It just means you have a spotlight on you. If you are mtf, and let's say, 5'5", you won't have to work as hard to pass, because no one is staring at you, and you don't stick out. Now if you're 6' or over, You have to make sure your voice, hair, clothes, mannerisms, and CONFIDENCE, are all on point. Otherwise, that "tall girl" could become "that >-bleeped-<" I agree with vexing that it is an issue only if you make it an issue. And it's not like when people see a tall girl they think "is that a >-bleeped-<?" it's just that it catches their attention. I'm 5'9" and I had an issue with my heighth for quite some time. Then I realized (after going out several times as me) that women come in many different shapes and sizes. There are women much, much taller than me. And women much shorter than me. Another thing I wanted to say (since we are talking about height) Is that I see girls my height, 5'9" in heels, very often. And they "pass" just fine. Because they are confident.


...I love being tall!
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Just Shelly

I Do feel fortunate that I am not too tall 5'7" but I still feel big compared too other woman. 
I feel the same with my broad shoulders, even though there equal or even as small as most genetic women's, I still feel insecure.

It does have to do with being secure with yourself, and not trying to hard to under/over exaggerate certain features.

Alot has to do with how you dress, I have seen many tall genetic women in 2" heels, some look great some not so, but it also has to do with how their dressed, I never think geez I wonder if there trans.
I have also seen average height trans women with 2" & 3"heels some look good some not. The ones that don't look good, scream trans.
If your 5'9" ,wearing a 6" mini skirt have minimal legs, very low cut top and 2" heels you may not pass
On the other hand you could be 6'1 minimal legs, skinny jeans (no low rise this time) 3" heels, scoop neck top, minimal jewelry. You may pass.

Look around, if 60% of the women around you are not dressed simular to you, WELL!

If your in a grocery store at 10:00 am dressed either way above, you may scream TRANS
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Stephanie

I wonder if there are more shops etc that cater for tall women in America?      Here in GB we have only one that sells fashionable clothes for tall women, but they are expensive!

 
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CaitJ

Quote from: Stephanie on January 11, 2011, 06:02:24 PM
I wonder if there are more shops etc that cater for tall women in America?      Here in GB we have only one that sells fashionable clothes for tall women, but they are expensive!

http://www.tallwomen.org/clothes/#uk
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