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Are We on the Verge of a Transgender Civil War?

Started by Shana A, January 10, 2011, 10:40:58 PM

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Shana A

Are We on the Verge of a Transgender Civil War?
by transmeditations on January 11, 2011.

http://transmeditations.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-transgender-civil-war/

There has been a lot going on in the transsexual/transgender blogosphere of late.  It's like a storm has been brewing for quite a few months now.  It is difficult to describe the points of division in the community because they are multiple, they are complex and they are deeply rooted.  As a member of the trans community who has been "out" for nearly twenty years, I have seen these problems for a long time now, and they seem to rear their head from time to time but never get resolved in a meaningful way.

Undoubtedly, others who read this will characterize the war differently, or may include things that I neglect to include.  That's fair.  This characterization is partial and incomplete.  But I think that we need to have these discussions and realize that our fate as a community is at stake.  With that said, there are people in this debate who are never going to compromise even a little, teeny, tiny bit.  I am not interested as much in the extremists on either side as on the moveable middle.  As a self-identified radical, I do not think the middle views are better, more rational or more reasonable.  I only focus on the middle because I want us to have enough unity to go forward as a political bloc to demand change. 
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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JosephKT

An interesting dilemma.  I have noticed some tensions with terminology, though I personally use the term "transgender" quite liberally and frequently.  I think I personally like the term, because the etymology of "trans" means to go beyond, over or to go across, which I think is a pretty open definition.

Perhaps the segregation is happening because of a great need to validate ones' identity by exclusion, actually I'm pretty sure that's how it happens.  If that is so, perhaps it's time for the community to decide shall we stand together, or stand apart.  Maybe that means finding a new term to use, but I get the feeling after the term is made once again there will be talk of "but I don't fit into that."  Of course, I'm not nearly as deeply involved in counseling, grass-roots organizations and the like, so maybe I'm completely off.
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Nicky

Interesting. I sense similar things to the author. But I think the issue is a lot of us struggle with self acceptance. What I think happens is if you don't accept what you are, then you will segregate yourself from anyone that by association points to you being something you don't accept.

e.g. you often here things like " I am a woman, I have nothing similar with non-ops, they can't be real woman (like i am)." "I'm just getting rid of a birth defect, I never had a male body, it was always a womans body with a defect..." "I am nothing like a crossdresser, they are men with a fetish"

I understand the powerful desire to be 'normal' though, to go unnoticed in society as men or woman, to wish that past never happened. If that is what you want, all power to you, you deserve it. We have a hard lot.  But I think we are better served by making 'trans' a normal state of being rather than trying to twist ourselves in a knot trying to believe we are just like anyone else. I would rather have someone say "so you are transgender? What flavor?, gosh you have lovely lips, let me kiss them some more...." than "gosh, could you imagine kissing a transgendered person?? Yuck, kiss kiss

I should add a caveat that I don't feel like I am 'normal', and I like it that way. But if you do, then perhaps my argument is moot for you.
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Naari

I also sense what the writer has presented. It is not very difficult to see or witness this both online and offline. In my opinion it boils down to basically what you have stated Nicky, our self-acceptance. If we accept who we are, nothing more, nothing less, we may find that we no longer out of necessity need a label nor do we need approval from peers, medical doctors, or pathologizing psychologists. We become free to associate with whatever we feel comfortable with, knowing we will never fit completely into any profile. It is only when we desperately seek acceptance outside ourselves that we try to fit neatly into a label at whatever cost. When we find we do not fit neatly, which IMO is bound to occur at some point or another, it creates stress, self-hatred, denial, etc. These feelings are then often projected onto others instead of dealth with from within.

It is rare that a single individual fits neatly into a created profile or classification. Only the most general of labels will match to many individuals at once. I had hoped that the term transgender might be one of these general labels. I still use the term but more and more it is leaving a bitter taste in my mouth. It seems to be moving from a unifying term to being even more divisive than the terms it was supposed to replace or 'umbrella'.

I think many of the issues raised here were created and are still being exacerbated by medical doctors and psychs who really have no idea what they are talking about. Many of us want to look to professionals for answers. Unfortunately, many psychologists, psychiatrists, and others that hold these titles are grossly biased and simply full of themselves. In the worst cases, nothing more than blundering idiots allowed to prance around as if they are authorities on subjects that they have little to no definite experience with.

IMO we must unify somehow and I don't really care what terms are used or not used at this point. Let's pick one and run with it. It is counter-productive for us to sit around and argue with one another about this or that or who is more or less trans, who is more or less woman, or who is more or less man. We are all human beings and like it or not there are other human beings which would wish the whole lot of us dead, locked up, beaten, marginalized, institutionalized, pathlogized, stripped of rights, the list goes on. We cannot fight this with any real determination if we are separated.

Peace, Love, and Hugs
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CaitJ



Pfft. Civil war. How dramatic!
Seriously, the homosexual community has managed to forge ahead with human rights, despite the fact that gays and lesbians share nothing in common except a like for their own sex. Their community is far more diverse and diametrically opposed than ours will ever be.
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Dawn D.

QuoteUnifying is something that will never, ever happen. It won't happen in trans circles, amongst cisgendered people...no groups of any kind. Division and conflict will always be there no matter what. The idea that people will somehow come together for this cause or that cause is a fallacy and nothing more.

Sadly, this is so very true. My own personal feelings about why we will not be able to cure the division within our own ranks are pretty strong. And might I say, probably VERY un-popular.


Dawn
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Naari

Quote from: Laura91 on January 11, 2011, 08:17:11 AM
Unifying is something that will never, ever happen. It won't happen in trans circles, amongst cisgendered people...no groups of any kind. Division and conflict will always be there no matter what. The idea that people will somehow come together for this cause or that cause is a fallacy and nothing more.

I am a dreamer for sure. I have had to ground myself many times to keep from floating off the planet. That being said, I see no fallacy in saying some people and some groups have come together for causes. It is not simply an idea. It is a logical statement and a verifiable fact. If I were to say all people and all groups come together for causes that would be a fallacy. Wishful thinking I suppose. Though I will continue to dream despite (and to spite) logic.  ;D

Quote from: Dawn D. on January 11, 2011, 03:34:55 PM
Sadly, this is so very true. My own personal feelings about why we will not be able to cure the division within our own ranks are pretty strong. And might I say, probably VERY un-popular.

It does not look promising. I sadly agree.
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CaitJ

As I said, there's sod all unity in the GL community, but their human rights are still forging ahead.
It would seem that unity isn't actually a requirement for success.
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Just Shelly

Quote from: Nicky on January 10, 2011, 11:42:02 PM

e.g. you often here things like " I am a woman, I have nothing similar with non-ops, they can't be real woman (like i am)." "I'm just getting rid of a birth defect, I never had a male body, it was always a womans body with a defect..." "I am nothing like a crossdresser, they are men with a fetish".

I read these sentiments quite often, I struggle because of some of them. I also feel like I may do some of these examples, not purposely though.


One thing I struggle with is, an MTF saying she is not gay, she says, "I'm not gay, I like guys".

WHAT??? :o

One that I try not to show is my indifference with cd's.

We are all different, just like the gay community, I don't think we have to agree with how anyone else views themselves.

Myself though, I like to communicate with others that have close to the same view of themselves as me.

Very nice post Nicky, I would give you a point on your reputation, but I don't know how that works. ???

Shelly
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CaitJ

Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2011, 05:49:27 PM
One thing I struggle with is, an MTF saying she is not gay, she says, "I'm not gay, I like guys".

WHAT??? :o

I'm not sure what context this is meant in.
Are you alluding that an MTF who is attracted to men IS gay?
Because that's the exact statement I'd make if someone asked me if I was gay, I'd say "No, I'm not gay. My preference is for men."
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glendagladwitch

I don't know of any FTMs who are so violently "anti trangender" as a certain faction of MTFs always seem to be. 

And I don't think that it's a coincidence that all of the transitioners who misgender late transitioners and insult cross dressers seem to be MTF. 

I think these people are deeply fragile, and that they lack the basic ability to honestly evaluate where their feelings are coming from and govern themselves.

As a result, they wind up being destructive and cruel.

QuoteI don't think we have to agree with how anyone else views themselves.

I strongly disagree.  The right to self-identify one's gender is, in my view, a fundamental human right.  Failure to recognize a person's self identified gender is cruel beyond belief, and transexuals should know that better than anyone else.  For a transexual to purposefully misgender someone is simply hideous.


QuoteOne thing I struggle with is, an MTF saying she is not gay, she says, "I'm not gay, I like guys".

WHAT???


LOL.  If you don't understand that, then I think you are beyond reach.
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CaitJ

Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 11, 2011, 08:11:28 PM
I strongly disagree.  The right to self-identify one's gender is, in my view, a fundamental human right.  Failure to recognize a person's self identified gender is cruel beyond belief, and transexuals should know that better than anyone else.  For a transexual to purposefully misgender someone is simply hideous.

+9000
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ativan

Quote from: Vexing on January 11, 2011, 08:27:41 PM
+9000
Agreed.

It seems to me that all of the different groups are at the very least linked by a thread. Some more than others. But that's the way most people anywhere are. It's the admittance that the threads do exist with a commonality that holds different/same groups together, that makes it or breaks it. It's not a term that's needed, it's acceptance that there is a community that exists. Whether you like it or not.
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Just Shelly

wow!

Don't know if my post was censored off.

or if it just didn't post for some reason.

Moderators, if I was censored and post removed, please let me know.

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Kate Thomas

#14
A real war of words?

Personalty I see it as a "gateway" or "introductory" word. A word that allows you to enter or exit this weird world that many call transgender. (for lack of a better term)
for some reason we humans need to put a label on our-selfs, even as others around us file persons in to stereotypes.

We will never be rid of "transgender" as it is in such common usage.
The only way to get rid of it is to create another word that would become more popular
"But who is that on the other side of you?"
T.S. Eliot
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LordKAT

Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2011, 09:02:35 PM
wow!

Don't know if my post was censored off.

or if it just didn't post for some reason.

Moderators, if I was censored and post removed, please let me know.



That has happened to me a number of times. No biggie, just very annoying.
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Naari

Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2011, 05:49:27 PM
One thing I struggle with is, an MTF saying she is not gay, she says, "I'm not gay, I like guys".

I am not sure if by saying 'struggle with' if you mean internally with yourself or externally from others. If you mean you cannot understand it externally or coming from others, it is not difficult to grasp. It is quite obvious why someone who identifies as a woman, trans or otherwise, transitioned or not transitioned, who is attracted to men primarily, would not identify as gay. Likewise, this person, if they were primarily attracted to women, would likely identify as lesbian. That being said, the person is still free to identify as they wish. If for whatever reason they do not wish to identify as straight or gay, their reasoning should stand and not really be questioned in my opinion.

If you are struggling internally with yourself as to whether you are gay, straight, just be quiet, still, and reflect upon your heart and mind. This will help you realize what you feel. When you are comfortable with what you feel, don't let anyone's prejudices, preconceived notions, or lack of understanding sway you from your truth.

Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2011, 05:49:27 PM
I don't think we have to agree with how anyone else views themselves.

If you mean that we do not have to view ourselves in the same manner that someone else does, I can understand that and that is acceptable I would think. If you mean that we don't have to agree with them on how they view themselves, while you are correct that we do not have to agree, we should respect their feelings and treat them as they see themselves.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 11, 2011, 08:11:28 PM
The right to self-identify one's gender is, in my view, a fundamental human right.  Failure to recognize a person's self identified gender is cruel beyond belief, and transexuals should know that better than anyone else.  For a transexual to purposefully misgender someone is simply hideous.

I totally agree.
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Miniar

Funny...

Not too long ago, my husband said something along the lines of;
"I'm amazed that american GLBT folk haven't started a civil war yet.. "

It was in reference to some anti-gay thing or another...
I lol'd at the time.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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CaitJ

Quote from: Miniar on January 12, 2011, 12:38:52 PM
Funny...

Not too long ago, my husband said something along the lines of;
"I'm amazed that american GLBT folk haven't started a civil war yet.. "

It was in reference to some anti-gay thing or another...
I lol'd at the time.

In a GLBT war, I can't decide who I'd ally with; the butch dykes are pretty ferocious, but then again, the leathermen come with their own armour kits and fantastic musculature.
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Miniar

Oh, he meant that all GLBT would war against the haters, not against each other.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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