Gender Roles

[Sean]

The problem is that we can't argue with Cait, because it is impossible to find a double-blind study of children raised without gender cues to see how they were treated. Even infants are reactive to their environments, and if we can't control the environment, we can't prove anything.

I wish I could remember the author of the study, but I read within the past few months about a particular study that explored how different people treat infants - even newborns! - based on presupposed gender. I know there have been a number of these, but tihs one was particularly good about counting waiting time to respond to cries, face contact OFFERED by the adult, adn so on.

All the studies in the world that show that baby girls do X and baby boys do Y don't mean a thing if we are working from the assumption that people are incapable of treating known baby girls and known baby boys the same. Gender socialization happens the minute you are born! No one is going to win a nature vs. nurture argument, given that constraint.

Given the existence of hard-wired biological expressions, including natal sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity, I would find it profoundly bizarre if there wasn't SOME component of gender expression that had hard-wired roots. But I certainly can't prove that, and I don't believe that ANY test can be created to prove it (due both to gender as a social construct AND the statistical outlier problem). Beyond that, I highly suspect that the individual variance would be so  large that proving an actual, hard-wired difference in gender expression or roles between the 'average' male and the 'average' female would be virtually meaningless in telling us something about any individual in the data sample.

[Sarah B]

Hi Helena

No I'm not just arguing from a culture point.  In fact you could say I'm from both camps.  We have innate traits that are hard wired, sleep for example,  However, where and when depends on our location and social surroundings and in language every human being is wired in the mind for language.  What language we speaks depends again on what society we are in.

To say that sexual attraction is not innate in human being would mean its a learned behaviour, and if its a learned behaviour one can unlearn that behaviour.  Try telling that to 'gays', that your behaviour was learned.

Human sexuality is an inherent human behaviour as well as our gender identity.

Kind regards
Sarah B

[Sarah B]

Hi Sean

Given the existence of hard-wired biological expressions, including natal sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity, I would find it profoundly bizarre if there wasn't SOME component of gender expression that had hard-wired roots. But I certainly can't prove that, and I don't believe that ANY test can be created to prove it (due both to gender as a social construct AND the statistical outlier problem). Beyond that, I highly suspect that the individual variance would be so  large that proving an actual, hard-wired difference in gender expression or roles between the 'average' male and the 'average' female would be virtually meaningless in telling us something about any individual in the data sample.

Which is basically what I'm saying also, we have innate traits (for want of a better word) and when we are born, socialization will modify those traits.

Kind regards
Sarah B

[Sarah B]

In our community, there is a typical statement which goes "Who would choose to be transgendered".  So if 'gender identity' is not an innate part of human being.  Then it is a learned behaviour, which accordingly can be unlearned.  However, much to the ''transgendered' communities failed attempt to unlearn this behaviour.  We are only left with that gender identity (to whatever extent) is innate in all human beings.

Kind regards
Sarah B

[Rock_chick]

Hi Helena

No I'm not just arguing from a culture point.  In fact you could say I'm from both camps.  We have innate traits that are hard wired, sleep for example,  However, where and when depends on our location and social surroundings and in language every human being is wired in the mind for language.  What language we speaks depends again on what society we are in.

To say that sexual attraction is not innate in human being would mean its a learned behaviour, and if its a learned behaviour one can unlearn that behaviour.  Try telling that to 'gays', that your behaviour was learned.

Human sexuality is an inherent human behaviour as well as our gender identity.

Kind regards
Sarah B

But I'm not saying human sexuality isn't an inherent trait, I just don't think it's gendered. The term gender roles would perhaps better be described as gender stereotypes or gender cliches, these kind of behaviours are constructs of the dominant cultural discourse and have just been around so long that they have obtained the status of myth and have thus been rendered incontrovertible. Should the dominant cultural discourse within society change, these patterns of behaviour, which are considered innately gendered because that's what society tells us, could switch or just fall from general usage. For example the fact that girls play with dolls, is considered an innately gendered behaviour when in fact it is an entirely socially constructed one, it's just that within the cultural frame work that we live our lives in, it has obtained the status of being an innate behaviour so that when someone goes against this, i.e. a boy playing with dolls or a girl climbing trees, the cultural framework labels that behaviour as other and excludes the individual from the bit of society that is labeled normal (which is usually white, middle class and male). The actual behaviour its self isn't gendered in the slightest.

There may very well be some some innate behavioural traits that are actually gendered from a biological point of view, but when i see the term gender roles I take it to mean socially constructed roles. It's the media and cultural studies student in me, it's just how i look at the world.

[CaitJ]

In our community, there is a typical statement which goes "Who would choose to be transgendered".  So if 'gender identity' is not an innate part of human being.  Then it is a learned behaviour, which accordingly can be unlearned.  However, much to the ''transgendered' communities failed attempt to unlearn this behaviour.  We are only left with that gender identity (to whatever extent) is innate in all human beings.

Kind regards
Sarah B

One wonders then why we have identical twins, where only one of the twins displays gender identity disorder.
If it's an inherent/innate function, shouldn't both of them be transgender?

[Sarah B]

But I'm not saying human sexuality isn't an inherent trait, I just don't think it's gendered.

I'm also of the opinion that they are two different traits.

There may very well be some some innate behavioural traits that are actually gendered from a biological point of view, but when i see the term gender roles I take it to mean socially constructed roles. It's the media and cultural studies student in me, it's just how i look at the world.

A very good view in my opinion.

Kind regards
Sarah B

[LordKAT]

I always saw role as a part you play and as such is mutable. Gender role being no different.

I do know of some MTF who over exaggerate in clothing and mannerisms when they first start dressing and going out. This calms down after a time and may be from them  becoming more cognizant of what real women act and dress like.

[Pica Pica]

Few people can play a role cold can they?

[Sarah B]

Hi Vexing

One wonders then why we have identical twins, where only one of the twins displays gender identity disorder.
If it's an inherent/innate function, shouldn't both of them be transgender?

A very good point.

However, an explanation as to why one is transgendered and the other is not, depends on how the twins develop invitro in other words the Degree of Seperation or better still whether the twins have one sac, two sacs, one placenta or two placentas and how hormones will affect the foetal brain.

Kind regards
Sarah B

[CaitJ]

Sorry Perlita, those are nothing but unverified theories. The etiology of transsexualism remains an unknown, else there would be peer-reviewed papers being upheld as the definitive reason behind transgender behaviours - and massive media coverage of these breakthroughs.
And I've yet to see either of these things happen.

[CaitJ]

Sorry Vexing but you are wrong. I am not at my office so I just have a  few peer-review papers backing up what I posted. Could anybody provided guidance as how to attach to a post?

You've found the root-cause of transsexualism?
A definitive and categorically proven root-cause?
Don't bother posting it on here - go straight to the press! Alert CNN, ABC and the BBC!

[CaitJ]

Is that the best you can come up with. You truly disappoint me girl. Hum... I will find a way of posting some of the papers

I'm deadly serious; this information, if credible, should be distributed immediately to the media.

[xxUltraModLadyxx]

One wonders then why we have identical twins, where only one of the twins displays gender identity disorder.
If it's an inherent/innate function, shouldn't both of them be transgender?

yeah, but then i've also seen an old talk show on the internet. i think it was jenny jones. there were identical twin transsexuals chanel and gabrielle. and then i also saw this other documentary years ago. it was about identical twins who were seperated at birth, but when they just discovered at 20 years old. they were so alike, it was very peculiar. from the way they dressed, the shampoo they liked best, and so much else. if they were raised in the same household, that probably wouldn't be so. most identical twins i've seen or heard about are very different, that it's peculiar, because most of them are raised in the same household. the twins that had one as transsexual and another not could have been it's own "abnormality." there's been many studies that do show male and female babies are wired differently, but that's why i say male and female, because sex is the real difference, while gender is this impossible to keep up with manual on everything culture expects from "boys" "girls" "men" and "women."

[Nobuko]

No true scientist throws around the word 'fact' so haphazardly, I'll say that much. Even before seeing anything concrete, I already have a real hard time believing these studies you're referring to draw conclusions anywhere near as concrete as you're implying.

[VeryGnawty]

No true scientist throws around the word 'fact' so haphazardly, I'll say that much.

I can't stand when people with so-called "objective" viewpoints use the word "fact" at least a dozen times in any given argument.  It is one of my pet peeves.  It shows they don't understand how science really works.  Even "facts" with well-described mechanisms are still just theories.  They can be, and often are, modified when we gain newer information.

A fact is nothing but an opinion which is held in too high a regard.

[CaitJ]

And people conflate the word 'theory' with 'hypothesis'.

[japple]

Then I was pressed (mostly by the trans community) ....

My therapist works with a lot of trans people and tells me that they're often quite sexist or have very clearly defined roles and stereotypes.  Like TS women who are very excited about getting further along in their transition so they can dance or cook more.  I often feel very misogynistic myself when talking about why I'm trans. I think I should be female but actually don't want to change much.  My therapist often says "you sure don't take anything for granted."   I often think that living and succeeding as a man, despite how odd it seems, is the most feminist thing I can do.  Like I'm getting away with something.

[japple]

In our community, there is a typical statement which goes "Who would choose to be transgendered".  So if 'gender identity' is not an innate part of human being.  Then it is a learned behaviour, which accordingly can be unlearned.  However, much to the ''transgendered' communities failed attempt to unlearn this behaviour.  We are only left with that gender identity (to whatever extent) is innate in all human beings.

Who would chose to be narcissistic, or abusive, or careless with money?  There are going to be scientific reasons for GID and there are going to be social reasons for GID.  We don't all have the same levels or types of GID or for the same reasons.   

[japple]

From the moment of birth we are hit with gender socialisation, which skews all gender testing.

Vexing, I am mostly with you and was all the way with you before I had a kid and got confused.  I have a toddler and I tried to avoid gender stereotypes at all costs with him.  His first word was ball and then bus.  He got excited seeing vehicles very quickly.  I was more than a bit surprised by this and would often take him into the girl's toy section and offer him toys.  He was never into them but went crazy over the trucks and cars and robots in they boy's section.  I started reading up on it and found stuff like this:

http://www.parenting.com/article/the-real-difference-between-boys-and-girls

Apparently boys respond to motion and mechanical interactions before and more intensely than girls.  This isn't in itself a gender role but would lead to some gender based behaviors.  Natural selection would find this advantageous for the hunters in hunters/gatherers society.  There would have to be aggressive reproductive traits that help alpha males breed.

We're all mutants so there can't be any role or inherent trait without exception, but I think it'd be strange not to think that there are primitive mind traits that are generally inherently different in males/females.  At birth or caused by glands later.