would you date a f2ftm2mtf or a m2mtf2ftm and why or why not ?

[Lacey Lynne]

It is about the person, not the gender.

Ditto that here.  If you're cool, then we're cool.  Not a problem. 

[kyril]

If I'm attracted to someone, I'll sleep with him. If we have fun and I can still stand him in the morning, I'll date him. There are only a few elements of personal history that I consider disqualifiers for potential partners, and medical history isn't one of them.

That said, the odds of me being attracted to someone with an estrogen-dominated hormone balance or someone who presents or identifies as a woman are pretty much zero. I think that's going to end up excluding both of your categories.

[Nygeel]

If I was really into the person then it wouldn't matter...however! I am very confused by the idea of a person with this sort of gender and don't feel as if it would be appropriate to date somebody with that identity because I don't understand it. I do think that if I were to be friends with somebody with that identity that eventually I would understand it better.

[Amazon D]

ROFLMAO    thanks everybody...   this lets me know how i am seen by the trans community... lol damn and i thought the outside world of trans people thought i was strange but you all .. well most of you can't understand me and well thats cool.. this helps me to better know how my words are taken here.. probably with a grain of salt.. yea i understand i am confusing to many here and i should have thought it was this much but maybe i didn't but now i know i am. ... There is another aspect i never mentioned and that is that i never liked physical sex (without emotions) but did it because i had too pre transition or else i would get a terrible case of blue balls.. OUCH   after transitioning that all went away.. then the only interest in sex was when i had a feeling of love for someone but most trans i met didn't seem to know this feeling that was needed by me to get me interested in sex. If i didn't have that feeling i wouldn't want to sleep with anyone.. most trans seem to want to sleep with someone first then see if it turns to love.. For me if the lights don't go on upstairs they surely won't go on downstairs.. I need love first and well that kept people from dating me and so that is another major issue with me verses another who does what i did. I feel love needs to come first to be sure we are really in love before i can be intimate. I was this way pre transitioning and i loved when i would just get wet from that feeling without having an erection.. i hated though having to masturbate to stop that nasty sex drive that use to rule my body whereas now its only my mind and a feeling of love that rules my body.. That i always felt was a mostly female trait.. I know many women need that true feeling of love to be able to function intimately. that is one of the major reasons i felt and feel female but when it comes to men wanting me to "get off" well that is a major turn off and reminds me of how my body functioned pre transitioning. It even started to mess with my mind and make me feel like a decieving male. I basically tried to masturbate first before going on a date with a woman so i could just be controlled by the feeling of love verses the testosterone ruling my body thusly my thoughts. So to answer the one i am the after and not the other, however, its so much easier dressing male than it was dressing and looking female. So maybe i am not a FTM and maybe i am a really butch lesbian who needs a feeling of love for them to function intimately but that never seemed the answer to me because many of them seem to want to act like men but maybe they do it to keep men away. Also some people ask me if i am female but dressing as male so i chose the ftm identity here and i have no intentions of changing my legal female identity. I also hated having long hair because when working i sweat a lot and hated how it would get all knotted up but otherwise i love long hair.. I also love to work hard so short hair is more practical and well it helps keep horndogs away from me.

Oh i do like men (as humans) who are not horndogs and i call them luvable lugs but i wouldn't date them because i am not attracted to what they have below which reminds me of what i use to have but a castrated pre op MTF or a pre op FTM is ok as well as a post op but it firstly has to be about love before i would even think about sleeping with someone. That alone has really stopped relationships from ever happening over the past 13 yrs which is ok by me because anything less is nothing at all.

thanks all for your answers

[KillBelle]

Personally i feel like that is just confusing  . I like guys that act like guys, and are just dudes...as gross as disgusting as they sometimes are. I can deal with being with a girl...if she is REALLY friggin awesome (unlikely though). I would date a FTM.

I would not date another mtf pre-op or post-op. f2ftm2mtf or a m2mtf2ftm is just totally out there.

[kyril]

Honestly, you sound to me like a perfectly ordinary butch woman who feels societal gender role pressure very acutely (probably because you were raised as male, where gender role conformity is a life-or-death matter). I'm not denying your FTM identity, but it sounds very strongly to me like you're saying your identity is on the F side, and you only consider yourself "doubly trans" because your visible expression is on the conventionally-M side.

Calling yourself an FTM (or saying that's the closest approximation you can come up with to your identity) implies that you, like me and the other female-assigned FTMs, identify with the M and not the F. We're not FTM just because we like to wear men's clothes and have short hair and not be harassed by straight guys. The first two, we could do as butch women (lesbian or straight), and the third is pretty common to all women, especially lesbians.

We're FTM because we actually identify as men, actually want to be seen as men (and not just as neutral non-objectified humans...I'd actually love to be objectified as a man by men who like men), and many/most of us (especially those who are transitioning) feel "right"/better on testosterone, not estrogen.

Regarding your generalization about trans people: I actually think I'm the only one in this thread who said anything about sleeping with someone before I date them. I'm a young recently-out gay guy...what can I say? But the women and the older folks in the thread are quite different in their approach.

[Amazon D]

Honestly, you sound to me like a perfectly ordinary butch woman who feels societal gender role pressure very acutely (probably because you were raised as male, where gender role conformity is a life-or-death matter). I'm not denying your FTM identity, but it sounds very strongly to me like you're saying your identity is on the F side, and you only consider yourself "doubly trans" because your visible expression is on the conventionally-M side.

Calling yourself an FTM (or saying that's the closest approximation you can come up with to your identity) implies that you, like me and the other female-assigned FTMs, identify with the M and not the F. We're not FTM just because we like to wear men's clothes and have short hair and not be harassed by straight guys. The first two, we could do as butch women (lesbian or straight), and the third is pretty common to all women, especially lesbians.

We're FTM because we actually identify as men, actually want to be seen as men (and not just as neutral non-objectified humans...I'd actually love to be objectified as a man by men who like men), and many/most of us (especially those who are transitioning) feel "right"/better on testosterone, not estrogen.

Regarding your generalization about trans people: I actually think I'm the only one in this thread who said anything about sleeping with someone before I date them. I'm a young recently-out gay guy...what can I say? But the women and the older folks in the thread are quite different in their approach.

Hey thank you Kyril you seem to have it right and i do like being seen as a male now mostly though because its easier to dress that way and because i do hard work. Yes you did speak about sleeping with someone first and well i wasn't just speaking to you i was speaking to my experiences.

Maybe i should change my name here do you have any ideas that i might feel comfortable with?  Oh you also look exactly like my oldest son who is 20.  it shocked me when i first saw you.

[tekla]

The only requirements I put on relationships (sexual or not) are:

1. No actors, actresses, or strippers ever.
2. You must be doing something you love (as I don't want to hear about how much you hate your job, and people with nothing but free time don't have much to offer)
3. You can't have significantly more problems and/or baggage than I do.

[Shang]

Regarding your generalization about trans people: I actually think I'm the only one in this thread who said anything about sleeping with someone before I date them. I'm a young recently-out gay guy...what can I say? But the women and the older folks in the thread are quite different in their approach.

I'm not older than you, but I'm different in my approach.   I chalk it up to different life experiences and different tastes, though, and I do understand where you come from. ^^

Personally, I look for love also.  I have had sex in the past, but I didn't really enjoy it because I didn't truly love the person.  I've made a vow to myself to not have sex until I am engaged and/or married (even if it isn't considered a recognized marriage in the eyes of the government) to the person I love.  It might mean plenty of nights being beyond horny and twiddling my thumbs, but I'm cool with that. 

I can understand where you (M2MtF2FtM) is coming from in that regard.  I also second the rest of what Kyril said 'cause he said it all better than I could have ever hoped to have achieved.

[Lacey Lynne]

I'm not older than you, but I'm different in my approach.   I chalk it up to different life experiences and different tastes, though, and I do understand where you come from. ^^

Personally, I look for love also.  I have had sex in the past, but I didn't really enjoy it because I didn't truly love the person.  I've made a vow to myself to not have sex until I am engaged and/or married (even if it isn't considered a recognized marriage in the eyes of the government) to the person I love.  It might mean plenty of nights being beyond horny and twiddling my thumbs, but I'm cool with that. 

I can understand where you (M2MtF2FtM) is coming from in that regard.  I also second the rest of what Kyril said 'cause he said it all better than I could have ever hoped to have achieved.

LukasGabriel:

Actually, this is very wise, and I, for one, totally respect your decision and understand it even.  Makes plenty of sense.  Awesome.  Very smart indeed.

And you are right about something else.  Our Kyril is a very gifted thinker and most capable wordsmith.  Reading his posts is ALWAYS amazingly interesting, and reading YOURS is great too, Lukas.  

Rock on, dudes!  You got it goin' on.

   Lacey

Postscript:

Like, hey, am I the ONLY one around here who wants to see pics of TEKLA?!?  Wassup with all of this mystery stuff.  Our favorite always-quick and sometimes-acerbic wit here at Susan's Place is in way-deep stealth mode even with us!  Wassup up with that?  

TEKLA, we wanna see some pics of the real you!       

[Lacey Lynne]

Michael Moore where are you?   

Michael Moore is visiting the Good Doctor, Norman D. Livergood.

Check-it-out website number one:

http://www.hermes-press.com/capitalist_genocide.htm

Check-it-out website number two:

http://www.hermes-press.com/health_industry_scam.htm

Check-it-out website number three:

http://www.hermes-press.com/capitalism_afford.htm

Lots and lots of folks will think I'm a fool for saying this, but here goes:

I believe Norman D. Livergood and Michael Moore are right!

Michael Moore was spot-on in his book "Stupid White Men."  The financial-industrial-military worldwide economic system which is ever more becoming this world's dominant culture (absolutely, definitely and positively on purpose) is to the earh as cancer is to the body:  eventually all-consuming and surely-lethal.

We humans MUST evolve in consciousness if we are to survive as a species.  If "business as usual" continues, our descendents face a nightmare existence and eventual extinction.  My home town was THE most industrialized city on Planet Earth, and as a kid and young adult, I saw first-hand the wanton destruction of the planet, people and spirits definitely and directly caused by this economic system running amok ... which it is ... and which it is designed to do.  Want to see a blue print of the dominant culture?  Go to Google and check out "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion."  It's a long read but darned well worth it.  Many are the researchers who maintain that The Protocols were/are a scam.  I beg to differ.  Read 'em.  Think about history over the last 100 years or so.  Draw your own conclusions.  I believe The Protocols are spot-on accurate:  effectively and demonically so.  Just my opinion.  You are perfectly free to believe otherwise, and I respect your opinion. 

Other than THAT! ...,

Back on-topic, the person who started this post is okay with me if they are decent and kind.  Gender fibrillation/oscillation matters not a twit in my book.  If the person is cool, then we're cool.  Just my opinion.  You certainly are entitled to yours. 

Peace.

   Lacey

[Lee]

I'm popping in late to the discussion, but here's my opinion none the less.  Gender isn't an issue with me, so I wouldn't mind dating someone who identifies as such.  As long as someone has their identity figured out, I can't see there being an issue with it no matter what it is.  I can also imagine that someone who has gone through that whole journey would have a strong sense of self and interesting stories.

[Catherine]

ROFLMAO    thanks everybody...   this lets me know how i am seen by the trans community... lol damn and i thought the outside world of trans people thought i was strange but you all .. well most of you can't understand me and well thats cool.. this helps me to better know how my words are taken here.. probably with a grain of salt.. yea i understand i am confusing to many here and i should have thought it was this much but maybe i didn't but now i know i am. ... There is another aspect i never mentioned and that is that i never liked physical sex (without emotions) but did it because i had too pre transition or else i would get a terrible case of blue balls.. OUCH   after transitioning that all went away.. then the only interest in sex was when i had a feeling of love for someone but most trans i met didn't seem to know this feeling that was needed by me to get me interested in sex. If i didn't have that feeling i wouldn't want to sleep with anyone.. most trans seem to want to sleep with someone first then see if it turns to love.. For me if the lights don't go on upstairs they surely won't go on downstairs.. I need love first and well that kept people from dating me and so that is another major issue with me verses another who does what i did. I feel love needs to come first to be sure we are really in love before i can be intimate. I was this way pre transitioning and i loved when i would just get wet from that feeling without having an erection.. i hated though having to masturbate to stop that nasty sex drive that use to rule my body whereas now its only my mind and a feeling of love that rules my body.. That i always felt was a mostly female trait.. I know many women need that true feeling of love to be able to function intimately. that is one of the major reasons i felt and feel female but when it comes to men wanting me to "get off" well that is a major turn off and reminds me of how my body functioned pre transitioning. It even started to mess with my mind and make me feel like a decieving male. I basically tried to masturbate first before going on a date with a woman so i could just be controlled by the feeling of love verses the testosterone ruling my body thusly my thoughts. So to answer the one i am the after and not the other, however, its so much easier dressing male than it was dressing and looking female. So maybe i am not a FTM and maybe i am a really butch lesbian who needs a feeling of love for them to function intimately but that never seemed the answer to me because many of them seem to want to act like men but maybe they do it to keep men away. Also some people ask me if i am female but dressing as male so i chose the ftm identity here and i have no intentions of changing my legal female identity. I also hated having long hair because when working i sweat a lot and hated how it would get all knotted up but otherwise i love long hair.. I also love to work hard so short hair is more practical and well it helps keep horndogs away from me.

Oh i do like men (as humans) who are not horndogs and i call them luvable lugs but i wouldn't date them because i am not attracted to what they have below which reminds me of what i use to have but a castrated pre op MTF or a pre op FTM is ok as well as a post op but it firstly has to be about love before i would even think about sleeping with someone. That alone has really stopped relationships from ever happening over the past 13 yrs which is ok by me because anything less is nothing at all.

thanks all for your answers

Can you rearrange this so that it is possible to read it ??

[PixieBoy]

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be able to date someone like that. To me, it seems like such a person doesn't know where they're going in life or what they're doing, an unstable person, and I think I need a stable, very sane person as I'm not stable or sane.

[tekla]

TEKLA, we wanna see some pics of the real you!

sure, I just have to find the photo gallery

[ToriJo]

Well, no, I wouldn't date someone.  I'm happily married. 

But before I met my wife, I probably wouldn't have dated someone who transitioned period, nor would I have considered dating a man.  That said, I knew my wife transitioned when I met her (it was literally the first thing she told me), and immediately had my world view challenged.  Here was this incredibly interesting and great person - should I run?  Or should I make sure my prejudices are justified first - and be willing to change if appropriate?

Having seen that I had a warped view of gender, sex, and the "expectations" of society, along with a fundamentalist point of view, I think I would be open to many possibilities *now*.  If I was no longer in relationship with my wife, I would seek out someone who has courage, strength, love, compassion, caring, confidence, and attraction to me.  I'd want them to be interesting and funny.  I'd want them to be attracted to me.  I'd want them to have support - if they need a therapist, for instance, I don't want to be the therapist, nor do I want to be a parent, a teacher, or a nurse.  I'd want them to be someone I'd have fun being with.  And, yes, I'd want them to be someone who has a sense of joy in bed.  All of this seems rare enough to find together that I don't think I should add a bunch of other things on top of it, like sex or gender.

So I'll side with people who have said sex and gender don't matter.  But I'd add one caveat: I wouldn't want to date anyone who wasn't living the gender that they are.  I couldn't be happy in a relationship where my partner was miserable.  So if my partner was living honestly, and was f2ftm2mtf or m2mtf2ftm, I'd be fine.

[blackswan]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a  "f2ftm2mtf" or a "m2mtf2ftm"?  Today, I'm happily married, so I wouldn't date anyone, but if I were single & dating, I would not date another woman since I'm a straight woman myself.  I don't think I could date a transsexual man either, but I've never had the pleasure to meet one personally, so I really do not know.  If he were smart, cute & masculine, maybe. 

[Nilisa]

No, not really. Aside from the fact I'm not in any place to date anyone, I think that I wouldn't know how to react to it, nor know how to approach the situation.

[Pica Pica]

I wouldn't date a f2ftm2mtf or a m2mtf2ftm because I hate acronyms and would never want to date one.

[Nilisa]

I wouldn't date a f2ftm2mtf or a m2mtf2ftm because I hate acronyms and would never want to date one.

Snrk.