Estro-Maxx Ad on Saturday Night Live

[rejennyrated]

Well as Helena Janet and I discovered in an interesting offline debate earlier the "British" decoding of that sketch is rather different to the "American" one.

Maybe in the UK we are just more used to that sort of ironic and slightly mocking humour because we have Emily & Florence in Little Britain, and the transsexual taxi driver in League of gentlemen, both of which shows have pushed the envelope far further than this.

So I won't comment on the offensiveness or otherwise to an American audience, I will take your word on that.

Instead I would just repeat what I said in another thread, about using reverse psychology. In a way silly OTT and grotesque misrepresentations like that ironically improve your invisibility because if the public are really so moronic as to think that that is what a real Transwoman looks like then they sure as heck ain't going to spot, or out, any of you in a million years.

Look at your avatars folks. You all look like normal women. NONE of you looks even remotely like anyone in that sketch, so there is simply no way that anyone would confuse any of you for that.

[Maddie Secutura]

I have some mixed feelings about this.  On the one hand I don't think we're exempt from this sort of thing.  On the other hand they probably should have done more research on the actual outcome of HRT.  It certainly doesn't leave one looking like a man in a dress.

Does this hurt our position?  Certainly not.  SNL is simply a satire; a reflection of our current mode of thinking.  The show really does nothing to influence it.

[Dana Lane]

I have some mixed feelings about this.  On the one hand I don't think we're exempt from this sort of thing.  On the other hand they probably should have done more research on the actual outcome of HRT.  It certainly doesn't leave one looking like a man in a dress.

Does this hurt our position?  Certainly not.  SNL is simply a satire; a reflection of our current mode of thinking.  The show really does nothing to influence it.

I couldn't disagree with you more. We saw what SNL did to Sarah Palin. Of course her base wasn't phased but the rest of the country most certainly was impacted by it. The same can be said about this skit.

Now I have to walk through my campus knowing a lot of people watched that skit and are now looking at me and seeing a man in a skirt. Maybe I am a bit more sensitive than some but to me this is a real issue.

[Just Shelly]

I had mixed feelings watching this. I do have low self esteem so watching this didn't help.

I was shocked when it first started but then I found myself laughing, then in shock, then laughing....

I find it remarkable that the writers new somewhat the regiment for transitioning.

One reason I don't find it offensive; is how many ts's do you see in a dress and full beard. They made a parody of ts's not a mockery.

I would of found it more offensive if they used actually ts's, although I don't know any that would of sold their soul to SNL.

[GinaDouglas]

I started out being offended, got real offended by Fred Armason on the exercise machine, laughed at some of it despite myself, and finally was horrified by the overall impression it left.

They don't make fun of other people with birth defects.

Sarah Palin might get skewered, but she has other forums to show her other aspects.  There is a balance between ridicule and serious treatment in the overall media-space, so satire is fair.  The problem here is that we get nothing but bad press and bad media, which makes satire mean-spirited and hurtful.

I have been working to get my girlfriend to believe that cis-people respect trans-people and take us seriously, not like in the bad-ole days.  Then this crap sets us back 20 years of social evolution.

I support SNL's right to make that skit, but I abhor their choice to do it.

[MarinaM]

In a way silly OTT and grotesque misrepresentations like that ironically improve your invisibility because if the public are really so moronic as to think that that is what a real Transwoman looks like then they sure as heck ain't going to spot, or out, any of you in a million years.

Look at your avatars folks. You all look like normal women. NONE of you looks even remotely like anyone in that sketch, so there is simply no way that anyone would confuse any of you for that.

Crisis averted! I hope they do look for that, I will definitely be perfectly blended in. I was so disgusted and discouraged. I'm glad there are ladies around with level heads to keep me up. 

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

I... I kinda agree, because it's getting the issue out there.

I, personally, sit in the 'Not Offended' pool. I think nothing should be exempt from comedy, and let's be frank, Saturday Night Live isn't very subtle. Everything I've seen of it is controversial and 'attacks' issues. How many people who were offended by that sketch laughed at songs like 'Jizz In My Pants', a song about premature ejaculation? I know I sure did. Or let's even widen the pool - How many people offended by that laugh at racist or sexist jokes? At jokes about people from other countries? SNL doesn't, from my experience, single anyone out. Like a lot of controversial comedies or sketch shows, it goes after anything and everything.

As one wise man I knew had in his signature; "If you can't laugh at yourself, you might just be missing the biggest joke of all".

Sorry, ladies, but I'm not offended. I support you all reporting it if you're offended, though.

P.S. Yes, I'm aware my views are controversial themselves.

I'm with Lairiana on this one.  I grew up socialized that nothing is sacred and nothing should be exempt from humor.  Different religions, cultures, races, genders - it's only fair that one either makes fun of none of them (thus being humorless. meh.) or all of them, and I think the latter is the appropriate and healthy response.

SNL is, as others have said, satire.  Whether the jokes are funny or not (or even in good taste) is really beside the question - there's nothing preventing them from airing these ads, nor should there be.

I make fun of transsexuals all the time.  I also make fun of gay people, straight people, white people, black people, hispanic people, asian people, old people, young people, and innumerable others.  And I think that's perfectly okay, and even healthy, because I still view these groups with the same respect as I would view any other.

The jokes may not be very good, but SNL isn't one to discriminate - they're consistent in making fun of basically every group under the sun, and thus I don't have a problem with this ad.

[japple]

One reason I don't find it offensive; is how many ts's do you see in a dress and full beard. They made a parody of ts's not a mockery.

Right.  Did you notice that no one was wearing a dress?  No one was a "guy in a skirt" either.  People were seeing what they wanted to see. I thought that as satire, as a fake product parody, they had exaggeration but also a kind of insight.  Correct terms, airport scanner, disarmed tone, tagline "Nature got in your way, your estrogen pill shouldn't."  Someone else said they were "Macho guys"..I didn't see that either.  They didn't do it with John Hamm. 

They could have skewered late-in-life transitioners, instead they did an over the top parody that mainstreams transsexuality. 

My first exposure to TS was "Silence of the Lambs" so maybe my perspective is off.  I think this sort of things is kind of cool.  We have arrived.

[Skyanne]

It's really no worse than Miss Garison in Southpark. I think it's kinda important to be able to laugh at yourself.

[VeryGnawty]

Maybe in the UK we are just more used to that sort of ironic and slightly mocking humour because we have Emily & Florence in Little Britain, and the transsexual taxi driver in League of gentlemen, both of which shows have pushed the envelope far further than this.

This might be one of the reasons I laughed so hard.  I'm fond of British humor... in small amounts.  But I noticed that British humor rubs a lot of Americans the wrong way.

I also thought that this skit was making fun of drug advertising more than it was making fun of transsexuals, even though it was making fun of both of them at the same time.

I do agree with some other members that a skit like this is devastating to transsexuals with low self-esteem or severe dysphoria problems.  But what can we do?  I wouldn't want to limit free speech by banning all satire.  At the same time, I can't console every single transsexual who might happen to view this commercial.

I love satire.  It is my favorite type of comedy.  But all satire inevitably succeeds by riding something or someone into the ground.  But I don't think censoring it is the answer.  That would not be a modest proposal.  (see what I did there?)

[rejennyrated]

This might be one of the reasons I laughed so hard.  I'm fond of British humor... in small amounts.  But I noticed that British humor rubs a lot of Americans the wrong way.

I also thought that this skit was making fun of drug advertising more than it was making fun of transsexuals, even though it was making fun of both of them at the same time.

I do agree with some other members that a skit like this is devastating to transsexuals with low self-esteem or severe dysphoria problems.  But what can we do?  I wouldn't want to limit free speech by banning all satire.  At the same time, I can't console every single transsexual who might happen to view this commercial.

I love satire.  It is my favorite type of comedy.  But all satire inevitably succeeds by riding something or someone into the ground.  But I don't think censoring it is the answer.  That would not be a modest proposal.  (see what I did there?)

That's a pretty good summary of what I deliberately wasn't saying because I didn't want to upset anyone. I think you and I have pretty much similar views on this one. I can see that people don't like it and I would not want anyone to be offended, but from a personal POV I would actually have found the sketch much much more offensive if the obviously fake trans characters had looked anything like the real thing.

The fact that they were evidently grotesques and NOT even close to the reality of what they were supposed to be, for me, made the whole joke be about the fake nature of advertising and the ultra low intelligence morons who actually BELIEVE what they see in adverts is in any sense real, rather than the so called trans characters who were just there to make the point that it was all a gross distortion of the truth.

All advertising is fundamentally fake, often the products are fake too, always the people selling the products are actors who are pretending (usually very badly) to be something they are not... and yet we the audience fall for it and we buy the useless overpriced rubbish they are selling.

Seen through British eyes, the joke was indeed much more aimed at the idiot advertisers and the fools who get taken in by them, than at any real trans person. In Britain I doubt whether this would even have been noticed. We take that sort of irreverent humour for granted. It is on our screens every hour of every day, just like we don't worry about nudity or swearing to the same degree that you seem to. On British TV you can even show full on full frontal nudity on a mainstream free to air channel after 9pm.

But I am genuinely saddened that people were offended by it. That is obviously not something which I would wish to see happening. The only thing is, if you ever come to the UK, do be very careful what you choose to watch on TV or you're unfortunately going to spend a lot of time being shocked and offended!

[Maddie Secutura]

I have yet to meet someone who thinks of me as a man in a dress.  I will sometimes show people an old picture of myself because to me it's as mundane as going on a diet.  SNL has done plenty of skits about people with birth defects.  There was the one with Betty White where Kristen Wigg was the odd sister of the bunch (weird prosthetics and not really that bright).  We're going to get made fun of.  Everyone does.  Coffee Talk anyone?

[Dana Lane]

,
Hate speech is protected under the first amendment, as long as it doesn't incite imminent lawless action (Brandenburg v. Ohio,)  As it should be, in my opinion.  Western culture is built on the bedrock of free thought and speech, and to censor someone for saying something that rubs us the wrong way is morally incontrovertible.  To quote Noam Chomsky, "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."

We do not have the power to 'censor' anything from SNL. But we damned sure have the right to speak out and to protest.

[Rock_chick]

Well as Helena Janet and I discovered in an interesting offline debate earlier the "British" decoding of that sketch is rather different to the "American" one.

I also think that from a dominant cultural discourse point of view, that kind of sketch actually shows how safe and non threatening being TS is viewed in terms of the status Q. Basically it means the long battle is near enough won.

[VeryGnawty]

I can see that people don't like it and I would not want anyone to be offended, but from a personal POV I would actually have found the sketch much much more offensive if the obviously fake trans characters had looked anything like the real thing.

You just said exactly what I was thinking after I replied to this thread.  If the actors in the sketch had looked or seemed like they were actually transsexuals in real life, I don't think the skit would have been very funny.  The humor factor seems to be playing on how unrealistic it all is.

The fact that they were evidently grotesques and NOT even close to the reality of what they were supposed to be, for me, made the whole joke be about the fake nature of advertising and the ultra low intelligence morons who actually BELIEVE what they see in adverts is in any sense real, rather than the so called trans characters who were just there to make the point that it was all a gross distortion of the truth.

That was my interpretation as well.  The fake trans characters were just a backdrop to make fun of drug advertising.  Even REAL drug commercials are funny because they are so ludicrous.  They show you people having a good time and relaxing, and then they have some announcer talking really fast over fine print about a dozen different side effects, most of which are WORSE than the condition the drugs are designed to treat to begin with.  As soon as I saw the beginning of the sketch, it was obvious that the real butt of the joke was meant to be drug advertising, not the trans characters in the sketch.

[Brent123]

Hey ladies. I'm not really sure how I feel about this but, then again, the skit wasn't directed at me.

But my dad gave me words of wisdom when I was a child. I grew up in a Jewish household. When I first starting hearing Jewish jokes, I was unable to see the humor because I felt like they were making fun of me personally. Then my dad told me something I still remember to this day; he said "when you laugh  at and make fun of yourself, you take the power to hurt away from others" or something along those lines.

Now I know that gender identity is different from religion but, in my mind at least, the principle still follows. I hope I didn't offend anybody because that was not my intention at all.

[marcy319]

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
  --  Mahatma Gandhi

So, maybe the battle for general acceptance is 2/3 over? I was slack-jawed, but couldn't help chuckling a bit. How ridiculous this is! Having said that, I could see how this hit a nerve with some folks, especially those who are insecure about their appearance.

But another kernel of truth to be taken from this is that HRT is not magic; a healthy dose of "realistic expectations" is sometimes unfortunate but necessary. Further, a successful transition is not made by HRT alone.

[long.897]

We do not have the power to 'censor' anything from SNL. But we damned sure have the right to speak out and to protest.

Which is absolutely true.  Protests are a wonderful way to convey a message, but claiming that the skit should be banned because it constitutes hate speech is entirely over the line. 

[Nigella]

That made me laugh my ass off. So offensive in so many ways though...us tgs dont even look like that!!!

My first impression was that it was really funny, sorry. If we can't laugh about ourselves its a bad thing. I have come through some grotty stuff as most if not all of us have had/are going through but I still found it funny and well, we are being noticed. It is an exaggeration to be true but that's humour.

Stardust

[japple]

Then my dad told me something I still remember to this day; he said "when you laugh  at and make fun of yourself, you take the power to hurt away from others" or something along those lines.

Ding! When an insult goes form "I want to punch your face you homo pervert pedophile ->-bleeped-<-got" to "I hope you're using Estro-Maxx.'  Win.