Conversations Between Long-Time Post-Transsexual Friends

[Natasha]

Conversations Between Long-Time Post-Transsexual Friends

1/28/11
by Suzan

Living as a woman isn't being a woman.

Becoming a woman after Sex Reassignment Surgery also takes time.

Being a woman in this world is dealing with the reality of having a c*nt between your legs.  It isn't an "identity" or a word game.

[LordKAT]

Load of ****

[japple]

Load of ****

I know, I have to stop reading her posts but occasionally don't check the link and click anyway  She is the exact opposite of what I find appealing (diversity, inclusiveness) of Susan's.  Ironically her name is Suzan so I read her like she's Bizarro Susan.

[heatherrose]

Load of ****

Well said!

[transheretic]

Being born transsexed and having it corrected is just about the only situation I can think of where everyone's opinion is given more weight and authority than those who lived through it and emerged on the other side.  Crap? hardly.  I don't agree with Suzan on lots of issues but when she sticks to this sort of thing, she is telling you the truth, her truth, my truth, the truth of almost every post corrected for years woman I've ever met and talked with.

There is no community of post corrected women because we are exactly that, women.  Like other women we share that one thing in common but other aspects of our lives are all over the place such as religion, politics, sexual orientation, you name it.  But on what Suzan has written here, we almost all agree upon.

Feel free to dismiss what is said, those who have not shared this specific life experience always do.  Older women are used to having our hard learned wisdom ignored.

[rejennyrated]

I have to say that I broadly agree with her too. Yes some of it is badly expressed and maybe overstated to make her point, but the fundamental point is right, which is precisely why when it comes to being post corrected, it is only the altruistic, or those of us with time on our hands for one reason or another who contribute to a community like this. The rest are busy doing precisely what she describes.

Unfortunately going through that surgery is like passing through a singularity. Passing through it does change things, but you have to experience it for yourself before you can ever understand it. Hence we all think the change of perspective is nonsense and won't happen to us, until it does.

[justmeinoz]

I struggled to find the point of it all, and had to re-read it 3 times, and was still not sure what her point was exactly.

[LordKAT]

The load of **** is thinking that being post srs makes  you any better than any of the rest of us. Different maybe but not better and always having been a part of it. If you have cancer and get to the point of surviving it, you are a cancer survivor, not someone who never had it. You would always be a cancer survivor no matter how you tried to hide or deny it. Get over it and admit you have been where some of us still are. You are not women anymore than someone who is still working on getting SRS. Women yes, but not more so than someone is not Post op.

[rejennyrated]

The load of **** is thinking that being post srs makes  you any better than any of the rest of us.

Yes well that would be wrong I agree. But I read it several times and I couldn't really see where she was saying anything like that.

I read it as saying simply that perspective changed - which it does - and that issues which previously were of overiding importance become less so, which they do.

I can't really see that that is saying anything about being better than anyone else, just about having different priorities - but maybe I missed something? Where does it say that one is any more genuine? clearly that is rubbish.

What I did see was the idea that this is a journey - and when you reach your destination then the quest part of the process is somewhat over... so you tend to just get on with enjoying where you are at. That surely is the point of doing it all - to arrive at a place which you are happy with and then just concentrate on enjoy that state of being.

[LordKAT]

You missed something.

Our lives, lived long after the operation that differentiates us from transgender people with their obsession with identity and word games aimed at convincing other they are really women, though male.

Is a pre op woman really only convincing others they are women though male? Does that operation really differentiate you form transgender people? No. Not really. You may think that you are women and that your past makes no difference, but that is deception. The past remains apart of your life even if you choose to live a life of stealth.

The article tries to be politically correct but still say that post op women are women and pre op women are only pretending.  I have better articles and people to waste my time on.

[rejennyrated]

You missed something.

Is a pre op woman really only convincing others they are women though male? Does that operation really differentiate you form transgender people? No. Not really. You may think that you are women and that your past makes no difference, but that is deception. The past remains apart of your life even if you choose to live a life of stealth.

The article tries to be politically correct but still say that post op women are women and pre op women are only pretending.  I have better articles and people to waste my time on.

To answer your question, only if judged by very superficial external criteria... Otherwise obviously not or there would be no hope for any of us.

And yes I missed that para completely - That part of the article I don't agree with obviously.

Just shows how easy it is to skim something and only see the bits that you want to see. I always want to think the best of people and so sometimes I tend to filter out things which prove that they are not as pleasant as I would like them to be... 

[transheretic]

I get sick of this......and for the life of me cannot remember ANY post corrected woman anywhere claiming to be better than anyone else.  Instead what is constantly applied is someone else personal set of hierarchies of good and evil,  For example, take the words male and female as opposed to woman and man.  Suzan did NOT say someone was a man, she said male.  Male has an actual specific meaning.......in mammals normally having a penis.  In order to claim that making a true statement as she did, is saying she is better, you first have to equate men and male with inferior to woman and female.  You can never ever admit that there are real differences (not better, differences) between men and women and male and female as the price of discussion with  overly sensitive people in transland which is why one commenter couldn't even parse a simple concept stated plainly and another goes off on a rant of indignant whatever.

Get over it....there are differences and the entire rest of the world understands it.  Considering that the official position of this discussion list is one that require a post corrected woman be misgendered (the trans crime extraordinaire) this bleating of "I've been insulted by a woman with a woo woo" is just plain hypocrisy.  Ok, commence with the banning...........

[transheretic]

No. Not really. You may think that you are women and that your past makes no difference, but that is deception.

Here you are straight out saying that you say is wrong......that post corrected women are deceiving themselves if they believe they are women. "You may think you are women"......screw you, I am a woman and the only place I ever hear otherwise is from people like you.

The article tries to be politically correct but still say that post op women are women and pre op women are only pretending.  I have better articles and people to waste my time on.

It says no such thing, But you did say the opposite and did so plainly.......I call foul.  And here stands in plain sight the reason why so many of us want nothing to do with those who hold these viewpoints and bray them to the world.  I am not better than Ru Paul, but I sure as hell am different.  Pre operative peoplle born transsexed are neurologically the gender they claim, science proves it to an ever increasing degree almost daily now.  The SRS does not make one a woman or a man, their inborn neurology does.  When someone with a male neurology gets SRS to make a female body, they do not magically become a woman.  It is not the SRS that makes one a woman or a man, it's the neurology.  It is not SRS that separates those born transsexed from trangenders, it is the absolute need to put mind and body in congruence to the maximum degree possible that does.  If you have never expereinced the Dysphoric Imperative, you will never never understand it any better than someone who has never given birth understands what that means as well.

That's the real world, try living in it sometime.

[VeryGnawty]

Being a woman in this world is dealing with the reality of having a c*nt between your legs.  It isn't an "identity" or a word game.

Unfortunately, I wasted my time reading the rest of the article even though everything I needed to know was in this sentence.  The reason I wasted my time reading the article is so I can't be accused of jumping to conclusions.

Actually, being a woman is an identity, and has very little to do with what is between your legs.  Having certain things between your legs may make you look more FEMALE (which is another issue, actually) but it in no way makes anyone a woman.  "Woman" is a social construct that exists in our own minds, i.e. identity.

Frankly, I don't care how this person or anyone else defines what a woman is.  I'm only trying to be what I feel I need to be.  They can call me a man, a woman, or a jackcrackerpoppercorn for all I care.  It is just words.  It changes nothing.  I am attempting to correct a biochemical imbalance, in which having a "->-bleeped-<-" is only a very small part of.

If Suzan wants to glorify her ->-bleeped-<-, that is her business.  I'm not transitioning for a ->-bleeped-<-.  If all I cared about was a ->-bleeped-<-, I would go find a surgeon immediately.  If all I cared about was a ->-bleeped-<-, I would not have spent years researching hormones and how they are related to secondary sexual characteristics.

[LordKAT]

Here you are straight out saying that you say is wrong......that post corrected women are deceiving themselves if they believe they are women. "You may think you are women"......screw you, I am a woman and the only place I ever hear otherwise is from people like you.

The deception isn't post ops believing they are women, the deception is thinking that your past makes no difference. I never thought any woman, trans or otherwise was deceiving themselves or anyone else when it comes to knowing they are women. Read what I mean and not what you want it to mean.

The entire quote would make a difference here. You can't take a part of one sentence and then go off on me because you want to think that that one part is the whole thought.

You missed something.

Is a pre op woman really only convincing others they are women though male? Does that operation really differentiate you form transgender people? No. Not really. You may think that you are women and that your past makes no difference, but that is deception. The past remains apart of your life even if you choose to live a life of stealth.

I stated that the operation doesn't negate the fact that you have a trans history. I meant only that.[/color]


It says no such thing, But you did say the opposite and did so plainly.......I call foul.  And here stands in plain sight the reason why so many of us want nothing to do with those who hold these viewpoints and bray them to the world.  I am not better than Ru Paul, but I sure as hell am different.  Pre operative peoplle born transsexed are neurologically the gender they claim, science proves it to an ever increasing degree almost daily now.  The SRS does not make one a woman or a man, their inborn neurology does.  When someone with a male neurology gets SRS to make a female body, they do not magically become a woman.  It is not the SRS that makes one a woman or a man, it's the neurology.  It is not SRS that separates those born transsexed from trangenders, it is the absolute need to put mind and body in congruence to the maximum degree possible that does.  If you have never expereinced the Dysphoric Imperative, you will never never understand it any better than someone who has never given birth understands what that means as well.

That's the real world, try living in it sometime.

You will find that you are saying the same thing I am. That is why I did not like the article. You  read it differently than I but say the same as I. Calm down and actually read.


When the article said that pre op women were only convincing others they were women though male, that is the same as saying that pre op women are not women since they are only convincing others that they are. There would be no reason for adding the part about 'though male'.

My opinion on this article stands.

[heatherrose]

Becoming a woman after Sex Reassignment Surgery also takes time.

BU!! $H!T

The idea that one can become a woman with the twist of a knife and a little practice is poison to our cause.

I have said it over and over, "If you are not now, you never will be!"

If you were not a woman (M2F) before surgery, you will NEVER be one afterward!


There are women with penises and men that don't have one.
Gender is how we indentify ourselves and present ourselves to others.


How should we identify our intersexed brothers and sisters?
No matter the ambiguous primary sexual characteristics they were born with
nor how a surgeon may have butched them without their informed consent,
we are obligated to identify them as they would identify THEMSELVES!

[Sean]

I find it baffling that the validity of an opinion piece that violates multiple rules of the TOS here is being linked to and then discussed/debated about whether it is a legitimate opinion.

The author is entitled to her own opinion, of course. And she is no less a woman for having her perspective. But if her words were published here directly, it would have violated the TOS and been reported/noticed by a moderator. Period.

Anyone attempting to defend the "you're not a woman until you have SRS," anyone talking about being a woman as related to body parts and NOT being about 'identity' and anyone advocating for separatism or denigrating other parts of the transgender umbrella are not welcome here at Susan's. I would HOPE that a discussion trying to defend this opinion piece as it relates to ANY of those grounds would also not be welcome here.

[Shana A]

I find it baffling that the validity of an opinion piece that violates multiple rules of the TOS here is being linked to and then discussed/debated about whether it is a legitimate opinion.

The author is entitled to her own opinion, of course. And she is no less a woman for having her perspective. But if her words were published here directly, it would have violated the TOS and been reported/noticed by a moderator. Period.

Sean,

I skimmed this piece when it was originally posted, and at the time opted to leave it since the discussion was pretty civil. Having reread the article, I'm deleting the link and locking the thread.

Zythyra (News Admin)