This may seem awful.

[Fyrstar]

I was debating about bringing this up, but I'll never have an answer if I don't.


Is there a bias against CDs vs TGs?  I confess, I have a slight one in thinking that CDs pretend at being while TGs become.  PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont yell at me for saying that, I do not mean to offend anyone.  I'm new to having people to talk to about these things, and hope that you can give me some insight on what is the proper and polite way to think of it.

[Nikki_W]

Is there a bias? for alot of people I'd say the answer is yes
Is that bias appropriate when it appears? NO

and hope that you can give me some insight on what is the proper and polite way to think of it.

The proper and polite way to think about it is each person is doing what they need to do to be happy and neither is any better or worse than the other. This isn't a contest we don't have a single standard we measure up against and rank people based on how far they go. The only measure is "Is person X happy?"

[Kimberly]

CDs are a part of the TG umbrella term. As such I will assume you meant TS;

My best solution to your query is to suggest reading the crossdresser forum.  From what I have read there is more than 'pretending' going on.

As a side note, "CDs just dress as a woman" is a very gross misinterpretation from what I can tell by the by.

[Louise]

There are lots of different reasons why CD's dress in women's clothing.  I suppose that from the perspective of a TS all of us CDs are "just pretend", since we do not plan to transition to a completely feminine identity.  Many of us identify ourselves as androgynous and are more or less comfortable expressing both sides of our gender. 

I cannot speak for all CDs, just for myself.  While I do not identify myself as a woman, I feel that my femininity is more than just pretend.  I like to wear dresses and makeup because of who I am, not to pretend to be someone who I am not.

There will always be discrimination towards anyone who is perceived as different from the social norm.  All of us in the TG community have experienced that reality.  It is unfortunate that sometimes we even practice discrimination regarding one another.  One form of discrimination that is practiced in the TG community is a prejudice towards those who are perceived as "prettier" or who pass more easily.  The put down of describing a CD as just a "man in a dress" is one expression of this prejudice.

[Hazumu]

Somewhere I read:

"Post-op TSs look down upon
Pre-op TSs, who look down upon
TSs just starting their transitions and TGs, who look down upon
CDs, who look down upon
Post-op TSs..."

Personally, I think it's all stupid.  I'm doing what I feel necessary to find my comfort level, but One Size does not Fit All.  I have a friend from work who's TG.  She found her comfort level without surgery.  Sacramento Gender Association includes all with interests in gender issues beyond the binary Matrix.  There are CD members who are happy with two weekends a month dressing and going out.  They've found their comfort level, and I've enjoyed many good conversations with SGA members, whether they're TS/TG/CD/SO/curious/interested-bystander, whatever.

I won't measure others with my yardstick, and I do appreciate the same reciprocity from others.

My $0.02

Karen

[Robyn]

As a side note, "CDs just dress as a woman" is a very gross misinterpretation from what I can tell...

I agree.  The way I explain it when speaking in public is that CDs visit the other gender, while TS want to be (or are) the other gender.

And is there bias?  There sure is, unfortunately.  I seem to have to quell at least one flame war each year on one of my news lists, and the topic is usually over the lable 'transgender.'

If we can't be tolerant of each other, why should the 'religious wrong' be tolerant of us?

Robyn

[Steph]

I don't think that there is a bias as such, more of being resentful of one being confused with the other by those who don't know any better.  TS do not cross-dress.

Just as many Gay and Lesbians don't like being grouped with Transgender, as in GLBT, there is a similar issue between CD's and TS.  We are not the same although we do share similar hardships such as acceptance and coming out, but we are not the same.

Personally I feel that the reasons why CD's do what they do are far more complex than a TS as a TS is TS for one reason only, whereas a CD crass-dresses for many different reasons.  We see some topics here that reveal some animosity between CD's and TS but there is no bias here at Susan's.

Steph

[Sheila]

With all these name callings, what is a Transgenderist. I have known lot of women who are transgenderist, mainly women who dress as women who don't want anything to do with hormones or surgery or both. They are healthy enough to have one or the other or both but choose not to. They live their lives as women, mostly women do this as GG will do it and not be noticed. They have changed their names their gender markers and everything about them. We have in the GLBTQ groups a blending of all sorts and to put one  above the other is discriminating. It does happen, quite often, as being the human race we discriminate against our fellow human. Whether it be jealousy or insecurities or whatever, we do it everyday. I do it everyone on this list does it in some way. We just need to try and not feel that we are above another person as we are all so different. That is called diversity. I guess that is my 2 cents worth.
Sheila

[Fyrstar]

Thank you all for that wonderful (and mostly positive) insight=)

I know it was a difficult and strange question to ask, but without any guidance, even the best and most wellmeaning of us can end up quite a strange person when re-introduced into the mainstream. 

As you know, I've been making my journey alone without any input from others until I found this site last week, so it's generally been without that careful guidance.  I've had one person PM me and tell me that I shouldn't need guidance and that it's common sense, but it's not, really.

I, personally, hold no grudges towards anyone (that this relates to, anyway.  Don't get me started on work!) and hope to garner no ill will towards myself.  I do, however, try to understand things a bit when the waters seem cloudy.

While I have your attention, Sheila brings up a good point.  What IS the difference between TS, TG, CD, and TV?  I've always thought that TS=Transexual=TG=Transgender, and that CD=CrossDresser=TV=->-bleeped-<-.  Someone had corrected me on the TG in my OP and told me that I meant TS, so I was hoping someone might straighten me out (again).

[SusanK]

CDs are a part of the TG umbrella term. As such I will assume you meant TS.

While I don't have anything against CD's I have problems at times understanding their position at TG. Granted some do live 24/7 as women with little or no transistion (therapy, hormones, electrolysis - some do, ffs, and eventually grs), and some do transistion (all of the above), most don't. I don't see how a person expressing their feminine side by cross-dressing occasionally, and still live and work the rest of the time as men, often married with families, can define themselves as transgendered when that term implies they have a gender identity more like their opposite (birth) sex. I'm not against it, and my view is that it is fine with me, they're just different causes and agendas.

It's not a criticism, just confused, especially when I hear CD's demand acceptance by transpeople as one of them. Yes, under the umbrella term, but not under the specific term. If the DSM-IVR has removed cross-dressing as a type of transsexualism, making it an expression of that or a hobby or fetish, how can a CD explain their transgender status when they live 90+% of the time in the birth gender?  And I've heard CD's express views of misunderstanding with transpeople, sometimes similar to gays asking why do you want to change your sex and not just stay a TV or CD (aka, keeping your manhood and identity).

I wish everyone could be accepted as they are, and expressing differences isn't an expression of bias or judgement. I have the same confusion that CD's are not women dressing as men, who seem to have greater public acceptance, but this also seem to apply to transmen too. In the end I see that we each have our own experience and worlds.

Interesting thread and thanks.

--Susan--

[Sheila]

I don't think that if we had a society that if you want to wear something you can. Like a guy wearing "womens clothes", in this society it is all right if a female wears male clothes and I see now that they even wear boxer shorts. They are not looked down at, in fact some say it is kind of cute. Now, if you took a male and he decided to wear a nice suit, womans, with skirt jacket and a bra just to fill it out a little up top or maybe leave off the bra and hose with some heels, he would certainly be looked at. I mean if he didn't pass as female. He just wanted to be nice looking according to him. He didn't want to be female just liked the clothes cause he thought they were cute. I think if society accepted that kind of dress, then there probably wouldn't be any CD's  or TV. Now, with a TS, this is totally different. It doesn't have anything to do with clothes at all, its about who they are on the inside. They are trying to become the opposite gender, through surgery and/or hormones. They may opted for none, but live as a female without anything done. They feel that they are female. We can debate that you are not TS unless you change your physical appearance, but it really doesn't have to do with that at all, and then it depends on the person how far and how they want to look. TG is a term that umbrellas anything that a persson does when they transition to one gender to another and it maybe for an hour or a lifetime. Drag queens and kings are part of that terminology along with CD, TV and TS. I don't think I left any out.
Sheila