How do we do with the title(Ms/Mr stuff)?

[tiffany leung]

Hi all,

So I am a MTF transexual person currently in transition with a unisex name, and I do not wish to change my name even after my surgery. However I dislike my title and wish to do something with it. Some friends suggest me that when filling out tables (say when I open a bank account or join a health club), I may tick 'male' as my gender, but tick 'Miss' as my title. My friend thinks that 'gender' (male/female) is a legal representation, and we have to make it match with the gender as recorded on our ID cards/passports. Yet as for the 'title'(Ms/Mr), it is more like a social preference, so that we can chose the one that we wish. Do you think this argument works?

As for me, when I fill in a form before a staff (of a bank, a club or something like that), I choose to intentionally leave the title question blank, and the staff will fill that out for me. I just pretend seeing nothing and go away happily - that makes me feel good and less frustrated.

Does anyone have any comments/suggestions for this?

Tiffany

[Asfsd4214]

I just check female and ms... I figure if it's a problem someone will tell me, nobodies ever gone to jail cause they clicked the opposite gendered box.

My drivers license says female anyway, so it just as well might create a problem clicking male instead. Regardless I refuse to click male unless someone tells me female simply doesn't work.

[Sarah B]

Hi Tiffany

I would say tick the Ms box and I would say tick the F(emale) box.  Why because you said you are transitioning although I would not consider it as such (as in my case I was always female).  When I left my family and friends and I arrived at my new place where I was going to spend the next 15 years, the next day I changed my name.

Thereafter, I always ticked the appropriate boxes.  You mentioned that you have a unisex name.  The question remains do you still have a male middle names?  If so then that needs to be changed as soon as you can (you can leave it out for the time being if that is the case).  However as Asfsd4214 said "you will not go to jail because you ticked 'the appropriate box' for you".  You are a female first and foremost and secondly you are not defrauding anybody.  If someone questions you in regards to ticking the wrong box, say "I have ticked the correct box", but do not offer any explanation.

So hold your head up high and tick the correct boxes and then walk away with a happy smile on your face, knowing you did the right thing!

Take care and live the life you want, not as others say you should.

Kindest regards
Sarah B

[Kaelleria]

What does your driver's license say? What does your passport say?

If it says F, you aren't misrepresenting yourself in any way, shape or form. Believe me, you get significantly more looks if you check of male and you look female.

[ToriJo]

I agree with everyone else.  There's three kinds of forms:

• Forms that don't matter - things like magazine subscriptions, being a member of a club, etc.  These are things that even if you lied about who you were, they wouldn't do anything about it.  Most of the time, the only reason they ask it here is to figure out how to send you advertising material in the mail, so put the answer you would like them to use.
• Forms where identity is verified - things like airline tickets, where you're going to have to show an ID and it's expected to match your answer.  I'd make sure my ID matched my gender and fill out the forms to match the ID.  If you have multiple forms of ID (say a passport and a driver's license), and they didn't agree on gender, I'd plan on using the ID form that matched who I know myself to be and fill out the form appropriately, so long as they would accept that form of ID.
• Forms where gender and/or sex actually matters - Marriage licenses are another example of something in this category (in most states).  Car insurance and retirement annuities might be another category of things where I'd want to be able to legally defend myself if they questioned my answers (particularly since they charge different rates or pay out differently based on gender/sex).  I'd put an answer down that I thought I could legally defend.

So I think it depends on what the form is.

[Sarah B]

I agree with everyone else.  There's three kinds of forms:

• Forms that don't matter - things like magazine subscriptions, being a member of a club, etc.  These are things that even if you lied about who you were, they wouldn't do anything about it.  Most of the time, the only reason they ask it here is to figure out how to send you advertising material in the mail, so put the answer you would like them to use.
• Forms where identity is verified - things like airline tickets, where you're going to have to show an ID and it's expected to match your answer.  I'd make sure my ID matched my gender and fill out the forms to match the ID.  If you have multiple forms of ID (say a passport and a driver's license), and they didn't agree on gender, I'd plan on using the ID form that matched who I know myself to be and fill out the form appropriately, so long as they would accept that form of ID.
• Forms where gender and/or sex actually matters - Marriage licenses are another example of something in this category (in most states).  Car insurance and retirement annuities might be another category of things where I'd want to be able to legally defend myself if they questioned my answers (particularly since they charge different rates or pay out differently based on gender/sex).  I'd put an answer down that I thought I could legally defend.

So I think it depends on what the form is.

Definitely what Slanan said above and do anything and everything possible (without getting into trouble legally) that will not reveal your past.

Kind regards
Sarah B

[Stephanie]

Male and female are legal representations - my mother is a lawyer.  This means that until you have submitted all the paperwork you should tick the box of your biological sex.    My mother's first job after law school was checking through insurance claims looking for any reason to invalidate them.     Putting the 'wrong' gender down may well invalidate any legal/financial contracts.   Good news regarding ticking 'male' but using 'Ms' or 'Miss'.  My mother says that while it could be argued that if you ticked 'male' then you should have also ticked 'Mr', it would be very difficult to prove to an independent arbitrator or judge that it wasn't an accident that you ticked a female title.    Also you can in theory at least give yourself any title 'Empress Stephanie', 'Mistress of the universe Stephanie'.   
I took out a subscription to a girls' magazine last year.   I paid by cheque which is in my male name but put down 'Miss' as my title.  I get my magazine sent to me addressed: 'Miss Stephen G......'  There hasn't been the slightest problem doing this.

[Pinkfluff]

I just put what I know to be correct. Often when you sign stuff there may be something to the effect of "everything is true and correct to the best of my knowledge". Yes, according to my knowledge, it is correct. I also sometimes worry that someone will try to make a stink with me for whatever dumb reason, but it's never actually happened. I did quite a lot of flying toward the end of last year too and (amazingly enough) didn't have any TSA problems, not even in their new scanner device.

[Cindy]

I'm sure Stephanie's post is correct.
However I opened a new bank account in Australia recently, I wanted to buy USA dollars and you cannot without an account at the bank that has them. So I ended up opening an account. Yes I had to have ID, but for most comments required  I could enter "other". So on the account they have my female name and (male driver licence and Medicare card name.)  My sex is other, my married status is other. However, I also  personally have to admit I really don't give a damn . what gender pronouns people give me. I am me.

Cindy

[rejennyrated]

I have to tell you that since just about the year dot, I don't think I have ever ticked a MALE box on any form whatsoever. Happily since 2004 the law in the UK now agrees that I am, and always have been female. However in the years that led up to the gender recognition act the law in the UK was determined not be reasoned argument but by one randy old aristocrat's need for a quickie no fault divorce at a time when such a thing didn't exist in UK law.

The end result was that until 2004 all postop transwomen were legally male because that way the aristo could have his marriage anulled as his wife was legally judged a man. Now whatever you think about obeying the law, to my mind that was a clear case where the law brought itself into ridicule, and was indeed a complete ass. Consequently in the decades between my transition/SRS and the 2004 UK outbreak of legal common sense I point blank refused to comply. I alway ticked the box which accorded with reality and not some fancy Dan divorce Lawyer's neat legal argument and I would do the same again now.

Did I ever get pulled up on it? NO! of course I didn't. Not even by any governments departments who knew my history. Sometimes I think you folks make things difficult for yourselves by simply being too honest and law abiding... I am and always have been F and Miss/Ms, and since the mid 1980's I have been theoretically able to prove that to most people's satisfaction simply by divesting myself of clothing.

That the legal system was living in denial and didn't catch up with my reality until 2004 is entirely their problem and not mine! I am and was F and miss/ms and anyone who said different was simply mistaken. END.

[Caith]

However, I also  personally have to admit I really don't give a damn . what gender pronouns people give me. I am me.

Cindy

"I am me." That's a wonderful, simple, and direct expression of who we truly are. 

Isn't it a shame so many people have trouble accepting us, and feel the need to push us into some stereotype?  Doesn't that say so much more about their lack of understanding and unwillingness to learn, than it does about our existence? 

[tiffany leung]

Thanks for all the posts!

Since I am still a student transitioning in campus, I wish to lay low a bit and do not make radical moves. What I am doing is grow my hair and slowly change my clothes to the female side.

Currently I think I am almost passed - I still get called in the undesired way from time to time, though. But in public I choose to not make a declaration about my gender, and not to correct anyone nomatter how they address me. I think within one or two months I will pass fully, and then I will surely let anyone who call me in the wrong way know that he/she is wrong.

But then going back to the topic, sometimes a wrong title really can cause a lot of trouble. A few weeks earlier I was opening a credit card at a bank, and the bank teller firstly called me 'ma'am' but changed after reading my ID card. He then filled my application form for me by ticking 'male' as my gender and 'Mr' as my title. At that time I wanted to ask him to correct the title (because I can do nothing to the gender question), but I was too scared to do so. The result was I got a credit card with my title embossed on the card before my name, and I get doubtful glances from time to time when using the card.

I think within half a year I might not be not able to use my card at all (because I wil be passing convincingly at that time, I suppose) - so do you think I can go to the bank and tell them to change the title, or simply let them issue me a card with no title on it?

Thanks,

Tiffany 

[ToriJo]

I think within half a year I might not be not able to use my card at all (because I wil be passing convincingly at that time, I suppose) - so do you think I can go to the bank and tell them to change the title, or simply let them issue me a card with no title on it?

I don't have a title on any of my cards, so I'm sure it's changeable - and I'm sure they want you to use their card, which is most likely to happen if the card matches your preference.  They might ask you to pay a replacement card fee.  I think you'd have the least trouble with no title at all.  If you tell them you won't use it without them changing it (maybe threaten to cancel it if they won't), you might even get lucky and have them waive any fees.  I wouldn't think you should even need to tell them the real reason - you can just tell them you don't like the formality that "Mr." implies, and you prefer your name without any titles.

[Rock_chick]

Personally I just put Miss down, there are one or two bits that don't match my appearence, but seeing as my tax, NI and Drs records all say Miss...they can go hang (well not really...i need to update my passport and drivers liscence, but i need money for that.

[Stephanie]

I prefer to use Miss for a number of reasons.  I think that 'Ms' looks fine in writing, but when pronounced 'Mzzz' it sounds ugly, clunky, and uptight.

[Sarah B]

I use Ms because it has two letters.  Mrs is for a married lady and Miss is for a young girl.  In addition when I introduce myself for the first time in front of an audience. I write down my title which of course is Ms, followed by my name.  In certain circumstances, I'm referred to as 'miss' and not Mzzz, with particular audiences.

However, I don't care what people call me as long as they are not rude.

Kind regards
Sarah B

[Stephanie]

I use Ms because it has two letters.  Mrs is for a married lady and Miss is for a young girl.  In addition when I introduce myself for the first time in front of an audience. I write down my title which of course is Ms, followed by my name.  In certain circumstances, I'm referred to as 'miss' and not Mzzz, with particular audiences.

However, I don't care what people call me as long as they are not rude.

Kind regards
Sarah B

Sometimes in written and online forms you don't get the 'Miss' option and have to settle for 'Ms'.  As I wrote above I don't mind Ms in letters etc but I really don't like the sound 'Mzzz'.   
There is a political agenda behind the promotion of Ms.   The feminist would have you believe that 'Ms' is the appropriate title for an adult female whether she is married or not.    There is an implication that 'Mrs' is a patriarchal title, as only women who have 'given themselves[in marriage] to a man' can call themselves 'Mrs'.   While at the opposite end of this argument, there are those who say 'Ms' is code for lesbian/man-hater.  I don't consider that 'Miss' is a title exculsively for a 'young girl'.  I could see myself answering to Miss but I would probably cringe at being called Mzzz.  Almost as much as I do when I am referred to as 'Mr'.