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Just When you think they know the basics...!

Started by Stephanie, February 06, 2011, 04:49:31 PM

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Stephanie

I was having a conversation with my mother yesterday, and I was explaining why I find the idea of having a job terrifying.     I said to her, that if I had a full-time job then I would have to
(1) Wear male clothes and scrupulously avoid perfume, make-up, body-sprays and jewellery.   Her response was 'why would you want to wear these things in a work environment?'   I replied because it is vitally important that I express my femininity I have had years and years of living in the closet and I find dressing and pretending to be a man psychologically and emotionally exhausting.   My mother doesn't seem to see the contradiction of her accepting me as female and yet also expecting me to want to dress as a man and be seen as a man by future coworkers.

(2) Conform to male norms of behaviour. I would be expected to sit with the men at breaks and talk about male subjects.  I told her that I wanted to sit with the women and talk with them and be accepted by them.  I would also have to act the part of a man and this I know from past experience would utterly drain me, life would not be worth living.    I don't want to be treated as a man by men and most especially not by women.   My mother's reply to all this was ' you are reading too much into this just talk to women and men.  Afterall women and men in the workplace do talk to one another.  Don't divide people into male and female, just think of them as people.'    I replied that of course men and women communicate in the office etc.  However, men relate to women differently from the way they relate to other men.   I don't want men talking to me about football, beer, cars, things, and objects when they wouldn't talk to a woman about these things.   In short I told her I want men to accept me as a woman and for the women to accept me as a woman.   This caused her to ask me 'why does anyone HAVE to know that you are female?   Can't you just keep that to youself?'  She went on about how no one will accept you.  Instead of being accepted as female all I will accomplish by coming out in a work environment is that I may be sneered at and isolated.    I know that she is trying to understand me and also trying to help but I found this conversation dispiriting and depressing.  I felt that she thinks that transsexuality and transvestism are one and the same.   She seems to think that I should only 'dress' as she calls it at night and at the weekends and only within the family home.  She is worried about the neighbours.  Actually I can understand this last bit.   I have read several times of 'unpassable' transsexuals being hounded in their homes by gangs of teenage boys.  Eggs have been thrown, windows smashed, graffitti sprayed and transwomen have been regualrly intimated and attacked.   Often when the police arrive - if they arrive - the boys are long gone and all the police can do is note the damage and file yet another crime report.   I really don't think that I could subject my mother and sister to all that.
Later on in an attempt as she saw it to compromise she said 'you know you could wear those unisex fragrances instead of perfume?'  When she saw my reaction she said 'why does it have to be perfume?  There are some nice smelling after-shaves you know?'  I was too worn-down to do more than mumble ' I don't HAVE to wear perfume, I just want to have it as an option.'   Vexing will be proud of me, I replied 'why should I slowly commit "mind-suicide" just to please cisgendered people.   I get to deny my gender identity so that others will not feel uncomfortable around me?!'   I have told my mother that I would actually find it easier to cope with overt hostility than to hide away and deny myself just to please others most of whom I don't care about at all.  There is something to be said about taking the 'I am who I am and you be damned!' attitude.

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Tamaki

I'm sorry your mom doesn't get it. I get the feeling that she doesn't want to believe it. Almost like if it's just crossdressing and she can keep it in the house then it's not real.

QuoteShe is worried about the neighbours

I'll bet she is! if the neighbors see then she have some explaining to do about things she doesn't accept. This is just another of her excuses. Sure you need to be cautious but what woman doesn't?

QuoteAfterall women and men in the workplace do talk to one another.

It's not about talking, it's about how the different genders relate to one another. Women treat other women in ways, both good and bad, that they don't treat men. If your mom started being treated like a man I'd bet that she would really hate it.

QuoteLater on in an attempt as she saw it to compromise

My mother does this kind of thing too. it's not a compromise but an attempt to talk you out of what you want to do. If you can wear cologne then you can wear male clothes too.

I'm quite sure your mom has a hard time understanding what is going on. People that aren't trans don't usually have to question gender the way we do. I'm also sure that your mom's worried about you, as all moms do, but stand your ground.

This is your life to live. Live it as yourself. Your mother has her own life to live.

Keep working towards your goals and good luck.
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Stephanie

Quote from: Hannah_Irene on February 06, 2011, 05:39:44 PM
If your mom started being treated like a man I'd bet that she would really hate it.



My mother has regular meetings with senior management and she often complains that they see her as 'one of the boys'.  So she does know what if feels like to have your femininity downplayed or denied.

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straycat

With regard to finding a job, I don't know what kind of work you have done but maybe you could concentrate on trying to find an environment where there is more acceptance of people who are outside the norms.  I think it has become easier in recent years but I realize there are still many people lagging behind and there are fewer jobs available right now.  Do you have a network of friends who know about you, that you can ask about different work environments?  I have heard many say that people working in the arts are more accepting like theater, music, etc. and there are many more jobs in those industries than just artists.
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Nigella

Hi there,

I used to be worried about being accepted and passing before my transition. I moved to a new area and no one knows of my past except my family. I am accepted and treated by everyone I work with as female. Most of of the "what ifs" don't just come up. It is however much more difficult if being seen as female is a problem. On the whole people are accepting.

Your mum is prob just worried about two things, what the neighbours will say and how it will reflect on her (only natural) and how you will be treated in public (again only natural). You will only know buy stepping out and moving forward in your transition. I frightened a man with his son when I first began to step out in public just by walking passed them, lol. Now it just doesn't happen as I said I'm just accepted on face value.

Stardust 
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Nilisa

Quote from: Stephanie on February 06, 2011, 04:49:31 PM
(1) Wear male clothes and scrupulously avoid perfume, make-up, body-sprays and jewellery.   Her response was 'why would you want to wear these things in a work environment?'   I replied because it is vitally important that I express my femininity I have had years and years of living in the closet and I find dressing and pretending to be a man psychologically and emotionally exhausting.   My mother doesn't seem to see the contradiction of her accepting me as female and yet also expecting me to want to dress as a man and be seen as a man by future coworkers.
I slightly disagree with this, but I'll explain why.

You can get away with things if you're working, but how much depends on where you work. I go to work every day - despite presenting as male - with clear nail varnish on and a women's v-neck t-shirt under my shirt, and often women's socks on too (Although I'm a bit sneaky by using women's walking socks; You can't tell which are male or female except for one pair I have). I have a level of freedom I've not had before, and I love it. Ironically, it's a job that's allowing me to express and explore myself more.

If you want to be you to whatever degree, then look for a job in an open, diverse environment. Try to work for a university, a library or even a smaller company if you feel safe there. A smaller shop might be more relaxed with how you express yourself or come across. I would suggest not working around kids, though, simply for your own safety and piece of mind.
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justmeinoz

I agree with Lairiana.  Maybe considering a different type of occupation is the go.

There are plenty of occupations where you will encounter minimal problems.  Anything in the Arts, or around a University immediately come to mind.  Also service industry jobs catering for a female clientel, such as hairdressing, fashion retail or design etc.

Maybe your Mum could try living as a man for a day and see how it feels! ;)
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Stephanie

Hi everyone, thanks for your replies.   I am currently learning Python, Java 6 and C as well as studying for the first level certificate in Linux Administration.*  I have been told that the IT world is more accepting of 'eccentrics' than most.    My mother has spent her working life in two areas that are well known as conservative: Law and banking.    This may well be colouring her views.
My taste in womens' socks unfortunately runs to the noticeably feminine.  I like pink, and hearts as well as flowers.  I do of course have less obvious socks but even they have pink at the toes, heels and top.    I used female deoderants all through university and no one appeared to notice, at least they never said if the did.  However, I am concerned that people in an office might start noticing that I smell a little 'perfumey' and start talking about, and start looking for other tell-tale signs.   
I am beginning to think that I am being a little too precious and over concerned about what others think of me.  As I wrote above I could handle hostility in varying degrees, although naturally I would much prefer general acceptance.  What I absolutely dread is being completely in the closet and feeling buried alive.






* Yes all at the same time!  :laugh:
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Stephanie

"If a [Wo]man's character is to be abused there's nobody like a relative to do the business."
Alexander Pope

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Karla

I had this reaction from my mom at the beginning she seemed to think If your identity is female that's fine and just "live with it" without altering any of the other external manifestations of us, sort of like a 'I don't care if you worship stones as long as you don't throw them at me'.. or some other similar concept.

They think it's enough, and it certainly appears to them like it's the path of least resistance but that is where they're wrong.
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Stephanie

I think that my mother is trying to unconsciously 'third-gender' me.   Cisgender people love to third gender us because they find it much easier to cope that way.   My mother thinks of me as a third gender person who has female orientation.   I am starting to believe that cisgendered people would find it easier to refer to us as 'shim' instead of 'she' and 'hum' instead of 'him'.  Calling a mtf 'she' seems too PC and psychologically grating.   My mother seems to think that there are males, females, female transsexuals and male transsexuals.  She has recognised my transsexuality as sincere and genuine that is why all her objections towards my "dressing" have gone.   To her I am a female transsexual not a female so my wanting to express myself to others as female seems to her something that I should not do.  Hence all this acceptance at home and 'why does anyone [outside] need to know anything [about me being being female] about this?'   
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