Rethinking transgender language

[Nygeel]

I've been thinking lately about all of the different words used within transgender spaces and how some of the language is problematic. I thought about why some of these words don't sit too well with me and would like to discuss what other think about the language used to describe people in terms of gender. What words are bothersome, why they are, etc.

So, I'll kick it off with a few words and phrases that bug me. "Genetic girl" and "transwoman/transman."

My problem with genetic girl is that usually people don't know their genetics. A woman might very well be genetically "not a woman" but be a cis woman. Plus, it pushes an emphasis on genetics as being the determining factor.

Transwoman/transman, my issue is that these words seem othering. I think that this phrasing is okay for self identification if a person identifies as a predominantly trans person and secondarily man or woman. Trans woman or trans man uses "trans" as an adjective to describe the kind of man or woman just like "tall woman" or "short man."

Anybody else have ideas for language that could be changed, or used differently?

[Flan]

I'm seeing a WP trend and in some threads (here) to identify as transwoman/man (all one word) or trans woman/man (2 words, one to recognize the treatment, another for identity)

my idea would be to convert the wiki terminology to the latter to for lack of better words, humanize the people who are undergoing transition instead of identifying the people by the condition. (ts'ism)

I pretty much agree with you in that the language should describe the person and not define (especially the misnomer "transgenderer").

[pixiegirl]

Yeah... this would be an interesting discussion to have if it wasn't 95% destined to devolve into a slanging match over transsexual/transgender. Good luck though.

[Elijah3291]

I don't like the terms "real guy" "real girl"

the only thing unreal about me is my lack of penis, chest, and genetic makeup

the term trans man doesn't bother me a bit though, I am a man, and I am trans, sometimes i identify as a man, sometimes i identify as a trans man.

[Nygeel]

Bio-male and bio-female is another one that bothers me. I don't understand what substance biology holds in that situation. I prefer assigned female at birth or assigned male at birth (AFAB, AMAB). It recognizes that when we're born doctors say what our genitals most closely resemble and call us based on what they see.

[xAndrewx]

Honestly as long as someone isn't insulting me I'll use pretty much any words and let people use pretty much any words except for "real guy or girl" like Elijah mentioned.

I am a real man but I'm also transgender/transsexual so the word transman does not bother me. I am one. AFAB or AMAB is a cool word and a great way of saying it but then it makes me think of the fact that I was female at birth transman for some reason doesn't so I usually use that. 

[Elijah3291]

Bio-male and bio-female is another one that bothers me. I don't understand what substance biology holds in that situation. I prefer assigned female at birth or assigned male at birth (AFAB, AMAB). It recognizes that when we're born doctors say what our genitals most closely resemble and call us based on what they see.

I would prefer 'trans man' to 'assigned female at birth' the latter seems to put too much emphasis on the female part, even calling myself FTM seems weird because I cant see the F, I know its here, but I dont like to admit it to myself

[Cindy]

I agree with all the comments, and I know I use genetic guy, genetic girl, TG and MtF and FtM. None of which I like. And often in a post I will say I don't like these terms but... For language to be useful it has to be descriptive. It also has to be functional. So how do we replace these terms?  Particularly when we might be communicating for the first time with a newbie who is just starting to explore their gender identity problems. Another phrase I don't like as my gender is fine, I'm female, it's the sex organs, both primary and secondary that are wrong.  To start stating 'as a man born into a female body' I identify with men born into male bodies. And of course the same for females born onto male bodies etc. It is more accurate but gets very clumsy. Given that the main stream press call people like me ->-bleeped-<-s, and men born into female bodies, lesbians, what hope have we got?

Interesting to hear what we may wish to use among ourselves though, and of course it would be difficult to police unless a poster was being obviously insulting.

Cindy

[Cindy]

Sorry an additional thought. In some gender assignment clinics people are referred to as XX-male or XY-female.

Which I don't mind

Cindy

[Tamaki]

The one that really gets me is a woman trapped in a man's body. I am not trapped in my body, in that sense anyway. Like Cindy says, it's the sex organs that are wrong.

XX-male and XY-female are fine with me if they're really necessary and you know your genetics. In fact this could be useful if you are intersexed, ie XXY-female. However, I see this as more useful in a medical setting.

I don't like MTF, transwoman, etc, most of the time female or woman (for me) is all that is necessary. How relevant is my transition most of the time? I am a woman, that's enough.

It seems like some of the big problems with a lot of these terms is the way gender and sex are used interchangeably, a general lack of understanding of the difference and the vagueness of what male and female are referring to. Is male referring to gender or sex?

The other big problem I see is that we are guilty of trying to stuff our language into binary boxes. What do we call the person assigned male at birth, taking female hormones, presenting as androgynous and doesn't want any kind of surgery? Gender is still being viewed as binary and we really don't have the words to describe it as a spectrum.

[PixieBoy]

The word "passing". It makes me think of pet training, "Heeere, ->-bleeped-<-, go on, pass, pass! Aaawww, you passed, who's a good ->-bleeped-<-?". A better word would be "percieved as...", since that is essentially what happens (you are percieved, by people, as male, female, a goth, a shoplifter, a tea drinker, etc). Being percieved as something cements the fact that it is purely in the eye of the beholder, and it removes the pet training vibes of passing.

[spacial]

Personally, I don't have any problem with terms that aren't intended to denigate or offend.

But I do have a problem when I'm not sure what they actually mean.

What is a cis woman for example?

[PixieBoy]

A cis woman is a woman who doesn't feel her body doesn't match her mind (sorry for stupid explanation, am tired atm). Trans mean "over, across, on the other side of, beyond" in Latin, Cis means "on the same side of". Cis is the opposite of trans, and IMO a better word than "bio woman", since all human beings are biological (unless someone on here is a cylon?).

[Rock_chick]

Media studies master class: all labels are othering, even if they come from within a comunity rather than being forced upon it by a dominant discourse. i.e. newspapers generally calling us ->-bleeped-<-s, or if they're really mean pervets with some kind of kinky fetish.

Linguistically most of the language used does an excellent job of describing the medical process we go through...the only two I don't like ate genetic girl or real girl, because hell it's possible to be an XX male or an XY female and real girl is a label that has it's origins in the dominant discourse and as such comes under the heading of language of control that seeks to belittle us and firmly put us in our place.

On a personaly level I much prefer the label "Helena", "woman" or possibly "human woman" (as opposed to a feline woman ...but I'm that too), but unfortunately humans and their language don't like such broad descriptive terms. Because we use language as a mental frame work to break up the world into bite sized and therefore understandable chunks labels are inevitable...and to be honest the issues people appear to have with the language is not because of it's descriptive nature (MtF is an accurate description of the process I am going through after all) but rather that some people choose to use these descriptive terms as identities, mainly because of the fact we lack power within the dominant discourse and those that tend to take the descriptive labels as identities tend to be seen as representatie of the whole and therefore by their actions define us in the eyes of our good friend the dominant discourse.

I also really dislike the term cis, especially the way I have seen it used on occasion and I agree totally with Pixie Boy on the term passing...it's not a test it's my life god dammit!

I'll stop now, I think I've used the term "dominant discourse" enough times for today and it's not even half ten in the morning.

[spacial]

A cis woman is a woman who doesn't feel her body doesn't match her mind (sorry for stupid explanation, am tired atm). Trans mean "over, across, on the other side of, beyond" in Latin, Cis means "on the same side of". Cis is the opposite of trans, and IMO a better word than "bio woman", since all human beings are biological (unless someone on here is a cylon?).

In other words, a woman who doesn't have the same problems as us. A sort of fancy way of saying normie.

You see, I thought is might allude to sissy, or sister, just couldn't figure out the purpose of the c.

But as I said, being understood seems to me, at least, as more important. That is, after all the whole point of English and whi English is so widely used compared to any other language.

[Nygeel]

I would prefer 'trans man' to 'assigned female at birth' the latter seems to put too much emphasis on the female part, even calling myself FTM seems weird because I cant see the F, I know its here, but I dont like to admit it to myself

AFAB would be a term if a person is refering to either people of all or many genders who were assigned female at birth. I do agree with disliking FTM and MTF. I think it focuses too much on the transition. It focuses on there being a starting point and an end point, where as for many of us there is no exact starting or end point in transition. It's a focus on the body and the physical instead of who we actually are.

[Nygeel]

I think we can agree that the concept of passing as well as the emphasis on passing is overall busted. I use the phrase "read as..." instead of "passing." It's the position of the person judging you to say if you are this or that as opposed to something you can do to change the outcome.

@Hannah_Irene You call them by their name, or whatever they identify as. Genderqueer, androgyne, two spirit, agender, bigender...and I can't think of any more words. Also call this person by whatever pronouns they prefer sie/hir, they/their, Ze/zir whatever they want

@spacial ehrm...what determines if a person is a "normie?"

[Sean]

A cis woman is a woman who doesn't feel her body doesn't match her mind (sorry for stupid explanation, am tired atm). Trans mean "over, across, on the other side of, beyond" in Latin, Cis means "on the same side of". Cis is the opposite of trans, and IMO a better word than "bio woman", since all human beings are biological (unless someone on here is a cylon?).

And I have a plan...

[spacial]

@spacial ehrm...what determines if a person is a "normie?"

Sorry, I was being cynical flippant with the excessive use of lables.

But the best defination I can think of for normie is possibly, utterly boring, devoid of anything intresting. 

[Maddie Secutura]

@Hannah_Irene You call them by their name, or whatever they identify as. Genderqueer, androgyne, two spirit, agender, bigender...and I can't think of any more words. Also call this person by whatever pronouns they prefer sie/hir, they/their, Ze/zir whatever they want

Gender neutral pronouns bother me a bit.  I can appreciate them from an academic point of view but seeing ze or hir in a sentence just looks like a misspelling to me.  They're not part of my everyday vocabulary and it takes an effort to use them.  I'm not against the concept, it's just a little jarring when I read or hear them in a sentence.