Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

Question about marriage

Started by Lee, December 24, 2010, 08:55:43 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lee

Hey, I was wondering how marriage works with legally changing genders.  If you were to marry someone in a state that does not allow same sex marriages, would it be annulled if you were to transition to the same gender as your spouse? 
Oh I'm a lucky man to count on both hands the ones I love

A blah blog
http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,365.0.html
  •  

Darth_Taco

I'm not really sure how it works in all states. From what I heard though, in California a gay couple where one or both people are trans can legally marry each other as long as they are legally opposite genders from each other. Then once they are both legally their chosen genders, the marriage cannot be annulled because the marriage was legally a "straight" marriage when it was done. I can't personally confirm this, but I can try to hunt down some people who've done this. I'd ask my boyfriend to test this out with me, but he'd get the machete out xD.
  •  

Jacquelyn

Quote from: Lee on December 24, 2010, 08:55:43 AM
Hey, I was wondering how marriage works with legally changing genders.  If you were to marry someone in a state that does not allow same sex marriages, would it be annulled if you were to transition to the same gender as your spouse?

I'm glad you posted this. I am curious about this as well, and I can't seem to find anything absolute.
"Love is in fact so unnatural a phenomenon that it can scarcely repeat itself, the soul being unable to become virgin again and not having energy enough to cast itself out again into the ocean of another."

~James Joyce
  •  

Kitpup

Logic would dictate that if you are transitioned and after getting a legal gender change have an opposite sex partner that you would be able to legally marry in any state. However law is rarely logical, so I have no idea and have been very curious about this as of late.
  •  

LordKAT

In WI if you transition after getting married, you are still married whether you like it or not.
  •  

Keroppi

I know you're thinking more US states than other countries, but for interest and comparison, one has to get their marriage annulled (England & Wales) / divorced (Scotland) before getting a Gender Recognition Certificate to legally completely change gender.
  •  

Sean

As best as I can tell:

- You can marry in your state of residence if you meet their legal requirements for obtaining a marriage license. For states that only allow opposite-sex marriage (which is typical), you can sometimes marry as your transitioned sex, if you have the documents to support your "new" legal sex. Note that many states require a birth certificate for marriage licenses. If you are unable to change your sex marker on your birth certificate where you were born, you may not be able to document your transitioned sex, even if you have been able to change your driver's licesnse and passport.

- Some courts have been willing to deny benefits or inheritance to a transitioned spouse , after the death of the cis-spouse. Even though the marriage was legal and recognized by the state. Really depends on where you live.

- If you marry in your pre-transition sex, and your marriage becomes a same-sex marriage AFTERWARDS, there is no automatic requirement of divorce or annulment. There is no clear rules set up about what happens with any benefits related to marriage (e.g., IRS & tax, health care benefits, social security beneficiary rules, etc.). You remain married, but may face bureacratic hurdles along the way. This will likely diminish over time, as same-sex marriage IS recognized in more states and/or trans specific policies are enacted.

- Note that case law suggests BETTER outcomes in states that are more anti-LGBT for the pre-transition marriage that turns into a same-sex one. The more anti-LGBT, the more the state will think of marriage as between one person BORN female and one person BORN male. In disrespecting same-sex marriage as well as a person's right to transition, it winds up giving better status to the pre-transitioned opposite sex marriage, as a function of not ever really legally giving recognition to the "new" sex marker.

Hope that helps! It really matters where you live, and even then, there is just not a whole lot of answers.
In Soviet Russa, Zero Divides by You!
  •  

ToriJo

I know this is late, but I thought I'd add something.  Right now, the USA is pretty ugly when it comes to marriage and people who are intersexed or who have a gender different than what was misidentified at birth.

I think these marriages are safe in the entire USA:

1) Any marriage where one partner has male body parts, the other has female body parts, one partner is XX, one partner is XY, and where both partners have legal identification that is consistent with gender markers, such that it always indicates the partners are opposite sex.  This includes the case where both partners have transitioned.  Chromosomes, body parts, and identification don't need to match, but they need to always allow people to see both partners as "opposite" no matter what random standard is chosen.  The only possible complication is states that label the sections of a marriage license "husband" and "wife" - it's possible that the state could say you lied on the application if the "wrong" person in the state's eyes filled out the wrong section.

2) A marriage that existed before someone transitioned, and met #1 before they transitioned.

3) A marriage that would have met #1, except for the removal of body parts.

I think the above marriages would be valid everywhere in the US.  For any other marriage, we will not be recognized in all US jurisdictions.  The problem is the combination of state and federal rules in the US.  The only people that someone who has had SRS can be married to and be "safe" everywhere is someone else who had SRS (and is the opposite sex and gender).

Right now, part of the problem is that almost nowhere has actual legal statutes defining male and female.  It's up to whatever the courts randomly (and they seem to be very random here) decide.  In many cases, the courts haven't decided on this yet at all, so nobody knows how they would decide.

In some states, I am married to my wife.  We are in a heterosexual marriage, at least in my eyes and my wife's eyes (and the person's who issued us the marriage license).  But in some states, I'm not married.  Even in the ones where I am married to her, that marriage could be deemed invalid at any time - either the marriage could be challenged there or it could be challenged in the state where we were marriage.  Federally, I don't think there's enough knowledge to know if it would withstand a federal challenge.  It's a huge mess.

It's all about "keeping gay people in line" - too many people want government in charge of our bedrooms, and want to tell us who it's okay to have sex with.  Somehow, this gets translated to "if we prohibit marriage of gays, we won't have gay sex in America and thus America won't be destroyed by God."  Ironically, this ends up prohibiting heterosexual marriages (like mine) in some states, not that this makes things more or less wrong.

Two things need to happen to fix this.  First, DOMA must be repealed or invalidated.  DOMA allows states to not recognize marriages performed in other states.  "Cismarriage" never has to worry about this - but we do.  DOMA doesn't allow states to question the scenerio in #1 - if another state says a cismale and cisfemale is married, even if they couldn't have been married in a different state.  For instance, first cousins who are cismale and cisfemale who marry each other in Alabama (legal there) and then move to Arkansas (they couldn't have married there) are still married in Arkansas - and Arkansas is prohibited from invalidating the marriage.  But if both partners aren't cisgendered and of opposite gender and sex, then this states can now refuse to recognize a marriage granted by a different state.  It's a double standard and wrong.  If my wife and I were traveling cross-country, and she died, her body very possibly would not be released to me, her husband, but rather to her parents.  This is a huge wrong (and affects other areas such as medical care - particularly things like expressing end of life wishes, taxes, etc).

So, getting rid of DOMA is a big important step.

Second, we need to ungender marriage.  Civil unions are not good enough - in most places that have them, you can't have both a civil union and a marriage, so a marriage where a state might decide someone is a different gender than they are might choose to say that they entered into the marriage or civil union under false pretenses.  They might say, for instance, that my wife was really male, so I should have "unioned" her instead of marrying her.  But, since I didn't, I'm *neither* unioned or married.  Marriage licenses should not even ask for sex of the partners even in states that allow same sex marriage - unless there is law defining how to answer that question - lest they say the married couple lied on their application and thus declare it invalid.

I'd also add one more criteria that has been used to invalidate a marriage.  If a spouse didn't know that their spouse was previously seen as a different sex than they currently are, and married thinking that they were marrying a cisgendered person, at least one court has decided that this was essentially marriage under false pretenses and thus invalid.  This is an additional issue, in addition to getting rid of gender in marriage law, and probably should have some law to actually protect people (not being "told" should be explicitly defined as something that cannot invalidate a marriage).  But this probably isn't going to happen anytime soon, so people who want their marriage to be the most protected should make sure that both spouses can prove that the history is known (they might be challenged not just by each other, but by a third party such as a life insurance company).  :(

It's an ugly situation in the US right now.
  •  

myles

I am still waiting for my marriage license from Hawaii, I will let you know if it shows up. I was married after transitioning, changed my gender on DL and with social security (had surgery so used my surgery letter) but did not change my birth cert. or do a state gender change (which here is a write in so only used with social security).
Myles
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived"
  •  

Lee

Thanks for all the info guys.  Marriage isn´t in the foreseeable future for me, but it is interesting to know.  It still drives me nuts that the government basically does "You can now get married!  ....Just not to that person.  Why?  Because we say so."
Oh I'm a lucky man to count on both hands the ones I love

A blah blog
http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,365.0.html
  •  

straycat

In a few years, marriage may be less of a problem, but at this point it still will vary state by state in the US.  I remember a case in Kansas a few years ago that showed that state's position.  J'Noel and Marshall Gardiner were married in Kansas.  After Marshall Gardiner died without a will in 1999, his son (who was estranged from the father) did some digging and discovered that J'Noel was a post op transsexual.  The son wanted to prevent her from inheriting Marshall's estate and in a case that ended up in the Kansas Supreme Court, he obtained a ruling that J'Noel was male and because Kansas law only allows marriage between a male and female, the marriage was never legal.

From a press release you can find at the Transgender Law & Policy Institute:

Quote... the Court wrote,  "The words 'sex,' 'male,' and 'female' in everyday understanding do not encompass transsexuals...A male-to-female post-operative transsexual does not fit the definition of a female."

QuoteIn the Court's decision, Chief Justice Donald Allegrucci wrote that despite having transitioned many years ago, despite having legally changed her name, birth certificate, and other legal documentation, "J'Noel remains a transsexual, and a male for purposes of marriage under Kansas law. A post-operative male-to-female transsexual does not fit the common definition of a female."

Quotethe court based its decision in part on a 1970s definition of sex contained in Webster's dictionary. Males are the 'sex that fertilize the ovum and beget offspring.' 'Females "produce ova and bear offspring."'  The court decided that this everyday general understanding of the terms male and female preclude J'Noel qualifying as a female. Under this 'plain ordinary meaning,' millions of infertile people may no longer be considered 'men' and 'women.'

In Texas, there was a similar ruling.  Christie Lee Cavazos, a post op male to female transsexual married John Mark Littleton in Texas.  After John died in 1996, Christie filed a wrongful death medical malpractice suit.  The court ruled that Christie was male, therefore there was no legal marriage and she was not entitled to file suit as a surviving spouse.

For now I think that even if you are able to actually obtain marriage licenses and have marriages recorded in states that do not allow same sex marriage, you may not be able to have all of the legal benefits of marriage if it becomes known that you transitioned from one sex to another.
  •  

Padma

It's one of the fringe benefits of my transition in England that come the day, I'll be able to get an annulment instead of needing to get a divorce :). Feels poetically apt, given that me wanting to be a wife is one of the reasons my marriage failed.
Womandrogyne™
  •  

Radar

I'm curious about the state gender change not referring about changing the gender on your BC. What is this? How do you do this- or do all states not even have this? I assume this is different from changing the gender with SS, the DMV and your BC.
"In this one of many possible worlds, all for the best, or some bizarre test?
It is what it is—and whatever.
Time is still the infinite jest."
  •