Do you ever feel envious of those with Faith?

[Maddie Secutura]

But isn't all faith blind faith?

I know what you actually meant in terms of leading one to be follow religious teachings without question.  But if one were to really question it, to look at their own faith as objectively as they would someone else's they would see it's rediculous nature.
I began questioning my religion in elementary school.  I was raised catholic and went to catholic school.  I remember my teacher saying that christianity is the one true religion.  My immediate response was, "Well don't all the religions think they're the right one?"  My teacher said, "Yes but ours is actually the right one." 

I will not raise my children in any religion.  I will let them make up their own minds whether or not to think there is a need for a diety.  I don't hate theists.  I may find them misguided but I bear no hatred toward them.  Every one I've talked to seems to believe that the existence of their god is the null hypothesis.  That for anything else to be true, that must be disproved.  It is not my job to disprove your theory to make you not believe.  But if you want me to accept your god's existence as a fact, you need to present the evidence that supports it.

Long ago, gods were responsible for everything that wasn't understood.  A god dragged the sun across the sky.  Now we know the earth spins.  A god made the earth.  Now we know the earth formed from the ring of rubble around our baby sun.  A god made all the life on earth.  Now we know life evolved from simple life forms into the complexity we see today.

I find more beauty in the complexity of scientific study than any creation myth or diety.

[Anatta]

Kia Ora Maddie,

I can't remember where I originally read this take on what faith is...


"There was a tightrope walker, who was so good that he
could walk between two twenty stories building on a
tight rope with a balancing pole. Thousands of people
would watch him perform his breathtaking feat. After
he walked across the building he would have his
assistant sit on his shoulder and he would proceed to
walk across the building. Everybody were amazed and
gave him a thunderous applause. He asked them whether
they believed that he could do it again. The crowd
said, "Yes, we believe that you can!" After a while he
asked the crowd again, "Now, who wants to volunteer to
get on my shoulder?" With that the crowd became
silent!"

SUCCESS PRINCIPLES

There is a difference between Belief and Faith. We
can believe what we see. In the above story, the crowd
believed in the tightrope walker because they saw him
perform the feat. But when he asked them "Who wants to
get on my shoulder?" everyone was silent. You see, the
crowd had Belief but they did not have Faith. This
story clearly illustrates the difference between
belief and having faith.

Keep the 'faith' Maddie...     

Metta Zenda

[kyril]

I'm a skeptic and,yes, I have occasionally felt envious of those with a stable system of beliefs - theists and atheists alike. There is something disconcerting about not having that kind of absolute certainty that characterizes other systems of thought, an instability that can in your worst moments make you question yourself endlessly. But in the end I like being flexible, being capable of regularly changing my perspective and opinions, of not being forced to see things as inherently true or good or bad or evil or right or wrong or whatever. I like making up my own mind using the available information to create a jury-rigged, assumption laden, temporary and transient truth. I like uncertainty. A big part of belief is taking questions out back behind the chemical shed and shooting them in the head. Let the questions live people, let them live!

I'm an atheist, and I don't have a stable system of beliefs, per se. (Sure, I have a pretty stable system of ethics and principles - I have beliefs about what should be - but I don't have unfounded beliefs about what is.)

Atheism was the natural result of skepticism for me. I originally called myself agnostic, but I came to the conclusion that I couldn't justify privileging some unfounded beliefs over others - that all potential beliefs without empirical evidence for or against them were objectively equal, and so it would just be silly to treat religion-type claims as somehow special. If I was going to hold open the possibility of the existence of a triumvirate zombie god, I might as well hold open the possibility of invisible sock-eating dryer monkeys. If I was going to believe that there was a naturalistic explanation for my unpaired sock collection, intellectual consistency demanded that I also believe in a naturalistic explanation for other phenomena until presented with evidence to the contrary.

But I don't actively disbelieve in a deity. If Jesus showed up in my apartment right now and turned my water into wine, I'd be a convert (although I do prefer strawberry daiquiris, Jesus, if you're considering taking me up on the offer). I just don't think that religious claims are special; my attitude toward deities is no different than my attitude toward dryer monkeys or the Easter Bunny. It's all just lack of belief due to lack of evidence.

[Catherine]

I certainly do not feel any envy for people with faith.

I do question how people can have total belief in something that is unprovable. But its their choice and as long as they are happy with it then let them carry on.

But don't try and force those beliefs on to me.

[Anatta]

Kia Ora,

I have 'faith' in the Buddha's  Dharma, but I also have doubt and determination...The following quote explains my situation best...

"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place."

I guess one could also replace 'spiritual' with 'scientific' ...

Metta Zenda

[Berserk]

I really can't say I envy anyone who believes in a higher power at all. It could be because I've never been religious and neither of my parents were religious, so I don't have that background of ever having believed. I once tried when I was a kid for a few reasons, but having "faith" in a higher power, for me, feels like I have to water myself down and censor my own thoughts. It feels like enslaving myself to an idea that may or may not exist...which is completely illogical for me.

That feeling of attempting to believe something with no evidence whatsoever for it beyond a book that was written thousands of years ago by multiple people during various centuries in "tribute" to a common rebel supporting a mystery cult no different from any other mystery cult, who wasn't even literate himself feels beyond silly to me, and I don't like to feel silly (or at least that kind of "close my eyes, block my ears and pretend historical and scientific fact does not exist" silly lol).

As far as the whole afterlife thing, that's something a lot of religious people often ask atheists, as though it is frightening to think of yourself rotting in the ground instead of prancing about the clouds with angels. The thought that this life is it for me doesn't really disturb me at all. It just makes me want to make the most of it.

In general, I think I look upon logic with too high a regard to ever envy faith.

[Maddie Secutura]

I don't envy those who would get pissed off by a story about Michael and Gabriel trying to get God laid to loosen him up because he's been so up tight since Lucifer revolted.

[kate durcal]

Any of you being in combat, as in war? While in combat every body is begging to G-d, then after surviving, most everybody is back into their self assuring philosophies. Pretty funny thing to witness. Not that I love war, it did a number on me, most nigh i can be awaken by  my neighbor's farting dog.

Kate

[Jakeas]

On occasion I feel envious of people with devout faith.  I would love to experience blind faith for one day. To be able to believe something so strongly without a hint of skepticism would be a trip. But that isn't possible.  I don't understand religious faith and I probably won't ever be able to understand it.

I grew up in a non-religious home.  My mother gave us the freedom to choose what we believe instead of forcing us to believe in a G-d because we were told to.  When I was in college I started reading the Bible and began attending church. 

For several years I saw people crying because they were so moved by the music or message.  I never was.  I would often look around and wonder if anyone was actually moved or if they were all pretending because that is what they thought they should feel and how they should act. 

They said they felt the holy spirit moving through the place.  I never felt it or sensed anything.  I gave baptism a shot hoping that would help my lack of faith.  I just got wet and made others happy. 

More than once I've seen suicidal young adults in crisis.  Their hearts and minds shattered because they felt their sins were too great to be forgiven by this G-d.  Sins that I thought reflected natural human behavior and thoughts that we all experience. One day, the pastor said either you believe the Bible in its entirety or don't believe at all.  The choice for me was easy so I never went back.             

I'm not envious of the guilt or pain faith causes intrapersonally or interpersonally.  I'll never understand how some faiths claim to be the one and only way or the best faith or the correct option.  It is not a competition.  Being a part of the "winning faith" does not make you better than everyone else or one step closer to salvation or earn brownie points with G-d.

I've always been a skeptic and reason is my default.  Maybe I'm envious that the people of faith can believe something so deeply without question. Maybe it is their lack of skepticism that appeals to me? Maybe I'm a control freak and their willingness and ability to submit to someone or to a "higher power" that is more knowledgeable and can resolve all my issues.  Maybe I crave the easy way out.  The ability to blame someone else, Satan, oppressors, demons, or Eve for my inevitable sinful nature because of damaged DNA from "the fall" for my misdeeds rather than taking responsibility for my actions.

I'm not an atheist or a theist.  Not sure what I am or where I fit and I have my theories which change from time to time but I'm okay with that.   

[Amazon D]

On occasion I feel envious of people with devout faith.  I would love to experience blind faith for one day. To be able to believe something so strongly without a hint of skepticism would be a trip. But that isn't possible.  I don't understand religious faith and I probably won't ever be able to understand it.

I grew up in a non-religious home.  My mother gave us the freedom to choose what we believe instead of forcing us to believe in a G-d because we were told to.  When I was in college I started reading the Bible and began attending church. 

For several years I saw people crying because they were so moved by the music or message.  I never was.  I would often look around and wonder if anyone was actually moved or if they were all pretending because that is what they thought they should feel and how they should act. 

They said they felt the holy spirit moving through the place.  I never felt it or sensed anything.  I gave baptism a shot hoping that would help my lack of faith.  I just got wet and made others happy. 

More than once I've seen suicidal young adults in crisis.  Their hearts and minds shattered because they felt their sins were too great to be forgiven by this G-d.  Sins that I thought reflected natural human behavior and thoughts that we all experience. One day, the pastor said either you believe the Bible in its entirety or don't believe at all.  The choice for me was easy so I never went back.             

I'm not envious of the guilt or pain faith causes intrapersonally or interpersonally.  I'll never understand how some faiths claim to be the one and only way or the best faith or the correct option.  It is not a competition.  Being a part of the "winning faith" does not make you better than everyone else or one step closer to salvation or earn brownie points with G-d.

I've always been a skeptic and reason is my default.  Maybe I'm envious that the people of faith can believe something so deeply without question. Maybe it is their lack of skepticism that appeals to me? Maybe I'm a control freak and their willingness and ability to submit to someone or to a "higher power" that is more knowledgeable and can resolve all my issues.  Maybe I crave the easy way out.  The ability to blame someone else, Satan, oppressors, demons, or Eve for my inevitable sinful nature because of damaged DNA from "the fall" for my misdeeds rather than taking responsibility for my actions.

I'm not an atheist or a theist.  Not sure what I am or where I fit and I have my theories which change from time to time but I'm okay with that.   

For myself i can't understand how people can think all there is is life and death. If they do why don't they go for all they can get? I think its because people have a conscience. If there is just life and death then why have a conscience? Why not logically go after everything you can and take what you want etc etc. This is why there has to be a God and why i have to have faith in God in that one day i will understand my illogical reason to do good verses evil or going after everything for myself. The teachings of God in many religions seems to tell us we have a conscience choice to do good or evil. Yes i have a sister who is righteous and doesn't do evil and helps people and has no belief in god. However, she was raised a catholic up until 5th grade when she switched to public school due to some abuse issues.

If you believe there is no God and all there is is life and death then why do you then use your conscience to do good or maybe you don't?

[Maddie Secutura]

For myself i can't understand how people can think all there is is life and death. If they do why don't they go for all they can get? I think its because people have a conscience. If there is just life and death then why have a conscience? Why not logically go after everything you can and take what you want etc etc. This is why there has to be a God and why i have to have faith in God in that one day i will understand my illogical reason to do good verses evil or going after everything for myself. The teachings of God in many religions seems to tell us we have a conscience choice to do good or evil. Yes i have a sister who is righteous and doesn't do evil and helps people and has no belief in god. However, she was raised a catholic up until 5th grade when she switched to public school due to some abuse issues.

If you believe there is no God and all there is is life and death then why do you then use your conscience to do good or maybe you don't?

All social animals have a conscience.  It's what allows them to function as a group.  If gorillas and wolves and meerkats and chimpanzees et cetera are able to get along in a social circle, what's to say we are any different?  I find this answer far more compelling.  If you understand this model you can predict from it a mutation that would cause a lack of empathy and behavior not beneficial to group survival.  As it turns out, there are people like this.  They are commonly referred to as psychopaths.  If morality comes from the above, surely psychopathy could be cured by a simple trip to church.

Psychosis (not to be confused with psychopathy) is when one believes to be real that which is fantasy.  Sometimes it manifests as a fear that someone is out to get you or even so far as having your beliefs appear real to you to the point where you can't trust what is and isn't reality.  When one person is said to have this it is called Schizophrenia.  Mass psychosis is called Religion. 

[Jakeas]

For myself i can't understand how people can think all there is is life and death. If they do why don't they go for all they can get? I think its because people have a conscience. If there is just life and death then why have a conscience? Why not logically go after everything you can and take what you want etc etc. This is why there has to be a God and why i have to have faith in God in that one day i will understand my illogical reason to do good verses evil or going after everything for myself. The teachings of God in many religions seems to tell us we have a conscience choice to do good or evil. Yes i have a sister who is righteous and doesn't do evil and helps people and has no belief in god. However, she was raised a catholic up until 5th grade when she switched to public school due to some abuse issues.

If you believe there is no God and all there is is life and death then why do you then use your conscience to do good or maybe you don't?

I'm glad we all have free will but for me I don't need a higher power to police how I behave.  Others may feel different and I don't feel like they are lesser humans because they need the love or belief in G-d to help them live and prosper to the best of their ability.  I'm all for AA, prison miniseries, etc... as long as it helps one live a straight and sober life.  I don't steal because it is not mine to take.  I don't cheat because it is not fair.  I don't murder because it is wrong.  I don't need a story, law enforcement, the government or G-d to tell me that because my conscience does that just fine.

I find it interesting that you would assume that people with no belief in G-d would just "go after everything you can and take what you want etc etc." or that G-d and the fear of G-d's punishment is the one that stops you from taking what you want.

[Nicole99]

I don't.

I really think the basic nature of humans is compassion, if it wasn't we would not have survived as a species. There would be no empathy, no altruism, no community spirit, no maternal instincts. They are all part of our nature.

We don't need a god to tell us to love our children, don't need a god to know that helping others feels good, don't need god to know how to love, to care, to nurture.

If all there is to life is life,  would I be happier being an evil bastard, taking what I want, raping, killing etc... or would I be happier being compassionate and nurturing and receiving the same back? Kind of easy really.

[Anatta]

Thanks, but no thanks.  Given the choice - as we all have - between reason and faith, I'll take reason.

Kia Ora Tekla,

So you have "faith" in reason 

Metta Zenda

[Julie Marie]

Does anyone else feel a similar sadness or envy regarding a lack of faith?

No, not at all.  But I do feel a sadness for those who are so wrapped up in their faith they can't live life.

[Nicole99]

Here is an interesting twist on the question - do those with faith ever envy those without it?

[Sephirah]

I have faith in myself and the things I can accomplish, so no, I don't envy those with faith in a god / religion / belief system, because I personally see no need for such things in order to live my life.

[Amazon D]

Here is an interesting twist on the question - do those with faith ever envy those without it?

Personally i would feel so dead without a belief in a higher power. It gives me love and hope where people have always let me down. However, when i have tried the total surrender bit of the ego its very hard when living with others who don't or when they get weak and play head games with me. When living by myself i seem to surrender self better in the sense that i hear more clearly from above but then its not to other people which i know is part of the surrender. I feel sometimes other people, who are surrendering, as those in the www.twelvetribes.org do, i get where i want to be like them, but its so hard since little things get on my nerves and makes me a unhappy camper. It amazes me how some can live that way. Oh well time will tell if i ever go back there and try again. However, living on my farm being a simple caregiver to mom has been very easy and i get to do lots of hard work which i love. That helps me sleep well at night. Again though i could never not believe in above. What above is actually, does get confusing.

[kyril]

Kia Ora Tekla,

So you have "faith" in reason 

Metta Zenda

I'm not Tekla, but I agree with him, and no, I don't have "faith" in reason. I have relatively high confidence in reason because it works quite well. If there were another system of thought that produced equivalent results, I'd value it equally.

It's posts like this that make me wonder if maybe people of faith really don't understand what makes atheists tick.

[VeryGnawty]

I have relatively high confidence in reason because it works quite well.

Agreed.  I use reason because it produces results, not because I like reason.